Zion Backcountry Oversize Permit

[Iceaxe]

Since I'm pretending to be a lawyer on the interwebs today...... I'll bet anyone wanting to challenge a Zion ticket for exceeding the "maximum group of 12" could beat it.... I know the local scout group in my hood got nailed $50 for breaking this rule. They had two Subway permits but were over the the 12 limit. The scout leader just paid the ticket and referred to it as a $50 "Oversize Permit".

That rule is poorly written since we all belong to the same affiliation.... the human race... but we could narrow it down much further if we wanted.... Everyone who is a scout (even if from different geographical areas). Everyone who reads Bogley, Technically everyone who visits Zion and pays a park entrance fee is affiliated.

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[moab mark]

On a slightly different twist. Can you get a permit for Pine Creek and go 3 times in one day with 4 guys?

[Scott Card]

I posted too much last year (?) about being from Mapleton. Apparently someone back then thought that since there were three permits drawn from Mapleton, Utah, for the same canyon we were all affiliated. The ranger got an ear full from me and I received no ticket. I happened to know all three groups and proudy I got all three interested in canyoneering. However, we not "affiliated" since we were three different groups staying in three different places being funded three different ways. Thanks Ice, you went and did it. You brought up the permit system and one part of it that drives me nuts. I am now annoyed, yet again, at the permit system.....

[Iceaxe]

On a slightly different twist. Can you get a permit for Pine Creek and go 3 times in one day with 4 guys?

We have done that before.... We call it doing "laps".

I also did it with my kids in Keyhole when they were small. I would take them through one at a time, I'd only get a permit for 2.

I like to think of that as a grey area.... I'm guessing its not legal if you asked.... but its easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission.

[Scott Card]

On a slightly different twist. Can you get a permit for Pine Creek and go 3 times in one day with 4 guys?

I haven't read the rules for some time because I get mad but I don't remember where it says you can't do the same canyon more than once per day per permit. I may or may not have done one of the canyons twice one day on one permit. Most canyons don't lend themselves to twice (or more times) but a few do.

This makes me wonder, if I back track in a canyon to see something or to swim a pool again, I have effectively traveled three times through that section (going down, back up and then back down again). Can we not take a step backwards? Folks, I tell you, this system is just about that nuts.

[ratagonia]

On a slightly different twist. Can you get a permit for Pine Creek and go 3 times in one day with 4 guys?

I haven't read the rules for some time because I get mad but I don't remember where it says you can't do the same canyon more than once per day per permit. I may or may not have done one of the canyons twice one day on one permit. Most canyons don't lend themselves to twice (or more times) but a few do.

It does not say that anywhere. You need to have a permit to be in that canyon on that day. Check!

T