Zion technical overnight

[gootwan]

I'm part of a group heading to Zion late sept/early oct hoping to do an overnight canyoneering trip. Right now we are trying to decide between two options - Right Fork or Boundary/Kolob/Narrows (assuming its safely passable).

They both look like wonderful options but we are looking for some opinions or recommendations that might tip the scales in favor of one over the other.

Any advice?

Thanks so much, in advance.

Jordan

[ratagonia]

I'm part of a group heading to Zion late sept/early oct hoping to do an overnight canyoneering trip. Right now we are trying to decide between two options - Right Fork or Boundary/Kolob/Narrows (assuming its safely passable).

They both look like wonderful options but we are looking for some opinions or recommendations that might tip the scales in favor of one over the other.

Any advice?

Thanks so much, in advance.

Jordan

Even though less technical, I think the Right Fork trip is harder to pull off as a two-day trip, in times of limited daylight. Getting from Lava Point (West Rim Trailhead) to the Alcove in one day is challenging, even without including the 'best parts', Hammerhead Canyon and the Direct Upper Right Fork. Not camping at the alcove is a darn shame, especially since that is the first place with clean spring water. Make it a 3-day trip and camp on the slickrock before getting into the Direct potholes (and pull water from the potholes) --> one of the best trips in the Park, especially in fall.

Did the Hammerhead once with some backpackers/novice canyoneers. Told them to pack light, but that was not something they understood. Very slow getting through the raps of HH with their heavy packs, and they were inexperienced with awkward rappels and heavy pack - even slower. The size, experience and discipline (ie, pack light = PACK LIGHT) of your group.

Because of that prior experience, we did this trip:

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/0707right/index.htm

as a three-day trip.

Boundary out Kolob is less time-dependent. Get down Boundary (usually dry) and then keep going as long as seems good. The flow of Kolob might dry up before you get to the MIA, so you might need to load up on water when you find it in Kolob, perhaps when you get to it. Depends on how dry the fall is, and whether they are releasing from the Kolob Reservoir Dam (takes more than 3-5 cfs to assure water in Kolob at Boundary).

Then it is mostly just a long, beautiful walk out to the Main Canyon.

And just to be clear, gotta worry about getting the permit. Getting the permit and then driving up to Lava point - NOT an early start, for either adventure. So be sure to include the logistics of that in your calculations.

Tom

[gootwan]

Thank you so much Tom. Maybe we'll save RF for when we have a little more time.

Question- does ZAC run shuttles up to Lava Point?

[ratagonia]

Thank you so much Tom. Maybe we'll save RF for when we have a little more time.

Question- does ZAC run shuttles up to Lava Point?

Yes, we run shuttles to the West Rim Trailhead, casually known as Lava Point.

T

[Felicia]

Did the Hammerhead once with some backpackers/novice canyoneers. Told them to pack light, but that was not something they understood. Very slow getting through the raps of HH with their heavy packs, and they were inexperienced with awkward rappels and heavy pack - even slower. The size, experience and discipline (ie, pack light = PACK LIGHT) of your group.


Tom

I've been giving this subject some serious thought - how do you pack lightly?

What does a backpacker/novice canyoneer ditch?

How do you go light?

What are some of the greatest packing mistakes that are made?

[ratagonia]

I've been giving this subject some serious thought - how do you pack lightly?

What does a backpacker/novice canyoneer ditch?

How do you go light?

What are some of the greatest packing mistakes that are made?

I interviewed some people who had done Heaps with HEAVY packs for a story ( http://canyoneeringusa.com/rescueeheaps.pdf ). I knew where they were at when she said "we were just packing up the tents..."

You only bring what you REALLY need. So, a sleeping bag - YES (I've tried bringing less than that, and I cannot sleep without a sleeping back) but one carefully adjusted to be the minimum for the expected weather. Mine weighs 2-1/4 lbs, so I need to get a lighter one. Down is good.

Also bring a hat, polyester underwear and a lightweight foam pad (in summer, you can use the foam pads in the back of the Heaps pack, and I stuff a Kolob one in there too, and don't bring another pad. Find soft sand to sleep in for comfort).

If its going to rain, you're going to do something else. A lightweight sil-tarp is usually plenty of shelter in the Utah desert when appropriate, but not needed in general.

Bug dope - lighter than a tent.

One very light stove for the whole group. One pot, one spoon. Maybe a cup if you HAVE to have your evening or morning joe (I do, mine is Chai Tea). JUST enough fuel for the boils. Yes, dinner goes slower.

Exactly the food you will need. The kind that needs boiling water poured into it at most!

Depending on the available water source, one pump or gravity filter per group, and Aquamira as a backup. If the water is clean spring water (Grand Alcove), just use Aquamira, though some people are chicken.

Your canyoneering gear.

That's it. The amount of actual overnight gear is very, very low. If you are sleeping before getting your wetsuit wet, or can dry it out afterwards, don't bring foam, your wet suit is your pad. If a very wet canyon, this is a good time to wear a dry suit.

The main 'mistakes' are made by bringing too much stuff. Too much food, extra stuff, a backup water pump, extra stoves, extra pots. Our backpacking friends brought a heavy white gas stove and a week's worth of fuel to cook one dinner and breakfast. We told them we were bringing one gas stove for the group of 10, but they decided that to save time they should bring 1-1/2 lbs of stove just for them. Extra shoes? Maybe crocs for camp, but... Extra clothes? don't need em. If it gets cold, pull out your sleeping bag. Leatherman? Not! Etc. Every little bit counts.

If you need it, and you don't have it, then you don't need it.


Tom

[Felicia]

I interviewed some people who had done Heaps with HEAVY packs for a story ( http://canyoneeringusa.com/rescueeheaps.pdf ). I knew where they were at when she said "we were just packing up the tents..."

Yikes!!!

If you need it, and you don't have it, then you don't need it.[/i]


Tom

I'm on the right track. Thanks Tom!

[RedRoxx]

Just an FYI--
WM Summerlite bag rated to 32 degrees--1 lb.
Three quarter Insulmat Ether compact with 2.5 inches of loft--around a 1 lb
I use Aqua Mira and carry Micropur tablets as backup and treat water with it overnight.
I use a sil nylon poncho which doubles as a tarp like shelter and a rain garb.
Black Diamond Bivy--1.5 lbs.

Not the same but backpacked over 60 miles in 7 days in the Gila a few years back and my pack weight with about 8 days of food and water was 32 lbs.

[ratagonia]

Just an FYI--
WM Summerlite bag rated to 32 degrees--1 lb.
Three quarter Insulmat Ether compact with 2.5 inches of loft--around a 1 lb
I use Aqua Mira and carry Micropur tablets as backup and treat water with it overnight.
I use a sil nylon poncho which doubles as a tarp like shelter and a rain garb.
Black Diamond Bivy--1.5 lbs.

Not the same but backpacked over 60 miles in 7 days in the Gila a few years back and my pack weight with about 8 days of food and water was 32 lbs.

If it is unlikely to rain hard, the BD Winter Bivy works quite well and weighs 9 ozs. Also helps to keep things clean when rolling around in the sand.

T

[Brian in SLC]

Just an FYI--
WM Summerlite bag rated to 32 degrees--1 lb.
Three quarter Insulmat Ether compact with 2.5 inches of loft--around a 1 lb

If it is unlikely to rain hard, the BD Winter Bivy works quite well and weighs 9 ozs. Also helps to keep things clean when rolling around in the sand.

I use the BD winter bivy quite often by itself, or, if I need some more horsepower, I add a silk weight travel bag (6-8oz or near).

If you need a rain shelter in Zion on a canyon trip...you're hosed. So, I never bring any.

If I need more pad than my pack padding, I like the 5mm evazote you can get from MEC. Good bang for the thin buck. Also, makes your pack float like a cork (along with empty water bottles).

I like the ultralight down sleeping bags as they don't weight much, but, they do take up a bit of space. Usually too much for Zion in the summer.

Like a friend says, if you're not sleeping in all your clothes, you brought too much stuff.

I shoot for getting all my overnight/camping gear in a single 6.4L Imlay Canyon Gear dry keg. If its real warm out, maybe the smaller one.

I like pumped water, but, the small tablets are much smaller and lighter.

Fleece is super inefficient. If you need a layer that provides that kinda warmth, get a primaloft garmet. Takes up way less space and is warmer. Pile jackets really should go the way of the dodo...

I don't need a stove. But, a 3oz pocket rocket, mini fuel can, and it all fits in one of them small 1L Ti pots? Bulk is low and weight is near a pound.

I don't take a complete change of clothes, but, I will pack dry layers to sleep in. Silkweight tights and a syn long sleeve (maybe mid wt pattagucci: that cap 4 stuff is super warm for the wt).

I use 1 liter pop bottles that I recycle. I think they're way lighter then nalgenes and sure lighter than the current trend of all these "metal" water bottles. They crush nicely too, and, if you get a leak, easy to toss out. I see folks with these heavy, hard shell plastic bottles and empty, they weight a bunch. Count the grams and the pounds will take care of themselves.

Folks take WAY too much stuff...

I always tell folks I see lug too much gear, that when they get home, they should dump out the pack, see what they used, and just don't take the stuff they didn't. Also, consider each item, and, how you'd cope if you forgot to pack it. That helps eliminate extra pants, shirts, underwear, socks, etc.

-Brian in SLC

[ratagonia]

That helps eliminate extra pants, shirts, underwear, socks, etc.

-Brian in SLC

A dry/clean pair of socks to sleep in is a nice luxury.

T

[Iceaxe]

If it is unlikely to rain hard, the BD Winter Bivy works quite well and weighs 9 ozs.

I got tricked into that deal once for a June trip through Heaps.... Over 100 degrees on the hike in and I froze my ass off that night. All my clothes were quick dry nylon and I had nothing to hold the heat in the bivy bag. I now have a very small lightweight sleeping bag I carry, being comforatable while sleeping is worth a few oz's.

[Brian in SLC]

I got tricked into that deal once for a June trip through Heaps.... Over 100 degrees on the hike in and I froze my ass off that night. All my clothes were quick dry nylon and I had nothing to hold the heat in the bivy bag. I now have a very small lightweight sleeping bag I carry, being comforatable while sleeping is worth a few oz's.

Have to admit I've suckered a few folks with the not needin' a sleeping bag thing. Gosh, folks that haven't slept can be grouchy...(ha ha).

Helps to get that stuff figured out. To some, worth a night of shivering to not carry the extra weight. Others, not so much.

I see folks all the time carrying these really large volume and heavy bags, probably rated to 20 or 30 degrees, when they won't be anywhere near that temp. You can really get by with a much smaller, lighter bag if you wear all your clothes, too. That, and anything wet will be dry. There's a bunch of light liner bags out there that really do the trick, and, are lightweight and low volume. MEC for instance makes an overbag that's pretty trick.

Speakin' of wet...I still see tons of folks in jeans, carharts, cotton t's, socks, etc. When I'm on a techny overnighter, climbing or canyoning, its all non-cotton for me.

Yeah, fresh socks are nice to sleep in, but, I've gotton used to barefoot. Light liner socks don't take up much space.

Tried the space blanket thing as a weight savings. Stay warmer, but, yikes that's a soggy ride. I think I emptied a liter or more of water out of mine the next morning. Much prefer a light, breathable bag. Silly tarp works ok too (would need to vent it, methinks). Have an ID siltarp that is phenominally small which would work for a shelter for two if need be.

-Brian in SLC