Antelope Canyon RIP

[Jaxx]

...just like pimping your 12 year old daughter is kosher.

wait, wut?
Are you referring to polygamists? Are you trying to jab at Mormons? I don't think Redman is Mormon. Or are you jabbing at him because his name is Redman?

[Iceaxe]

No... what Snatch is saying is just because some people pimp out their children that does not make it right.....

I honestly found Snatch's remark to be one of the best anti-bolt (anti-stairway?) remarks I have heard yet.... just because someone placed a bolt does not make it right....

[Sombeech]

...just like pimping your 12 year old daughter is kosher.

Only if she's hot and actually worth the money.

[uintahiker]

Just showed the bolted pics to my wife. She didn't even want to look at them. Sad sad sad!

[rcwild]

As you all know bolts in canyoneering have always been a hot topic.... I always have a giggle when someone says "can't you just ignore the bolts?"

Well the short answer is "yes".... but the real answer is "no".... to me they are as offensive as the stairs now in Antelope Canyon, which I guess you could just ignore.... but I'm not exactly sure how you would actually do it.... Bolts or stairs.... I see no real differance.... any argument that you can make for bolts holds true for the stairs in Antelope Canyon....

Anyhoo.... here are a few pictures of what Antelope Canyon looks like these days.... When I first descended the slot in the mid 80's there were no stairs, only a few adventurous tourists, and the canyon was truly a special place at that time. Now it is managed more along the lines of a Disneyland....

The Antelope Canyon I knew is dead.... I miss the old Antelope.... RIP...

When you did Antelope back in the 80s, did you ignore the bolts that were there?

[bruce from bryce]

Ratagonia said: "Surely, Bruce al Bryce, you could concede that the Navajo guide would have expertise on his OPINION of the best canyon HE had seen... "

I would'va had the man been Navajo. But no he was as white as the both of us.

[bruce from bryce]

Hey Snatch I bet you truly believe in your heart since none of your relatives have raped and pillaged the land of the Americans that were here long before the white man, that you have no guilt in the matter.

Want to see how we continue to treat these people: http://www.greatdreams.com/BureauofIndianAffairs.htm

I WAS working for the National Park Service when this happened and believe me it is difficult to conduct business without internet. But after reading about how our wonderful people appointed to oversea the Bureau of Indian Affairs were handling their $$, I know it was the correct thing to do.

Everyone one of us should feel the guilt of the past deeds of our leaders.

bruce from bryce

P.S. Why did you mention a 12 year old girl?

[Bo_Beck]

I'm pissed that Bass and others created trails into the Grand Canyon. Totally destroyed my ability to have a "wilderness experience" into a once primitive place.

For the bolt debate!? Not for bolts unless necessary. As for Antelope Canyon? I might just be glad there are ladders when my body fails me and I would like to see natures magic even though I'm unable to exert the energy to downclimb, upclimb, etc., etc. Americans can buy up land, til it up, build vast enterprises all in the name of capitalism. Seems like it's a right we have? Are there exclusions to this right? American Indians? Are they not Americans?

[Iceaxe]

When you did Antelope back in the 80s, did you ignore the bolts that were there?

I have never ignored bolts.... just the way in which I view bolts has changed....

Kinda like the kids now days with their low riding jeans.... if you are 18 it's cool, and if you are more mature it's retarded.... but either way it's kinda hard to ignore....

Who knows.... maybe one day if I become an old, overweight, alcohol soaked, out of shape canyoneer I'll think bolts are cool..... and maybe when I'm 80 I'll think stairways in Antelope are cool.... and maybe I'll start low riding my jeans....

[Jaxx]

No... what Snatch is saying is just because some people pimp out their children that does not make it right.....

Thanks. I was very confused there.

[trackrunner]

Are there exclusions to this right? American Indians? Are they not Americans?

I'm goint to stay out of the bolt war. It gets me all fired up. But Bo thanks for this quote.

[ratagonia]

Ratagonia said: "Surely, Bruce al Bryce, you could concede that the Navajo guide would have expertise on his OPINION of the best canyon HE had seen... "

I would'va had the man been Navajo. But no he was as white as the both of us.

Perhaps I should generalize, B al B, into:

I accept that each person is an expert on his OWN opinion.

Tom

[oldno7]

When you did Antelope back in the 80s, did you ignore the bolts that were there?

I have never ignored bolts.... just the way in which I view bolts has changed....

Kinda like the kids now days with their low riding jeans.... if you are 18 it's cool, and if you are more mature it's retarded.... but either way it's kinda hard to ignore....

Who knows.... maybe one day if I become an old, overweight, alcohol soaked, out of shape canyoneer I'll think bolts are cool..... and maybe when I'm 80 I'll think stairways in Antelope are cool.... and maybe I'll start low riding my jeans....

Would love to see your pictures of this canyon when it was a technical route. I don't believe I've seen any.

[oval]

Well, since it's not wheelchair accessible, what's the point? If you are going to go to that extent, shouldn't you at least make it accessible to people with real disabilities? Kind of defeats the group that would benefit the most from such a thing. I say this coming from a perspective of a person who works with the full spectrum of disabled folks, trying to help them work and get around in the real world.

That's a real shame, imo

[RedMan]

Hey its their canyon, if they want snow cone stands so be it.

...just like pimping your 12 year old daughter is kosher.

Are you serious? You equate putting ladders and stairs as the moral equivalent of pimping out a 12 year old. Really?

[ratagonia]

Hey its their canyon, if they want snow cone stands so be it.

...just like pimping your 12 year old daughter is kosher.

Are you serious? You equate putting ladders and stairs as the moral equivalent of pimping out a 12 year old. Really?

Snatch is to "Canyoneering" as James is to "The Political Arena"

[R]

I am actually divided/conflicted about this. 1: I don't like to see nature scarred or ruined for convenience sake. 2. There is no chance at all my wife could see a canyon like this without stairs.

Abby and I hike as respectfully of nature as anyone, and have no desire to leave more than footprints in the sand. But she suffers rheumatoid arthritis that can, at times, be blindingly painful, and limits her to established trails that require absolutely no scrambling. I would one day like her to see Antelope Canyon. I can't put her in my backpack, so stairs are the only way.

If, on the other hand, the only way for someone like Abby to see certain sites is to scar them, no one understands more than she does about the importance of preserving and protecting the natural world around us.

So, yes, conflicted.

[Scott P]

Hey give the Navajos a break.

I agree. While I don't agree with putting stairs or over bolting a bunch of canyons on public land, the Navajo Reservation is not public land. What they have done to Antelope Canyon is no different than if anyone else did the same thing on their own private property.

We are lucky that the Navajo's even let us hike/sightsee on the Reservation. Many reservations don't. What percentages of private land owners around even let sightseers visit their property? It's not that many. In many parts of the local mountains you will see "private land/no trespassing" signs.

Anyway, I too wish Antelope Canyon wasn't staired up, but it's also not my decision. I'm glad they kept it open to the public.

Antelope Canyon is a tourist attraction period, so those who don't like it can visit another few thousand canyons on the plateau.

I also thing it's a valid example and a good original post though. It seems to me that Antelope is a good example of what canyons (on public land) should not become. Some canyons in Zion for example, have class 2-3 terrain bolted.

Would love to see your pictures of this canyon when it was a technical route. I don't believe I've seen any.

If interested, Kelsey's old versions of the Lake Powell book have such photos.

[snatch]

Hey Snatch I bet you truly believe in your heart since none of your relatives have raped and pillaged the land of the Americans that were here long before the white man, that you have no guilt in the matter.

Want to see how we continue to treat these people: http://www.greatdreams.com/BureauofIndianAffairs.htm

I WAS working for the National Park Service when this happened and believe me it is difficult to conduct business without internet. But after reading about how our wonderful people appointed to oversea the Bureau of Indian Affairs were handling their $$, I know it was the correct thing to do.

Everyone one of us should feel the guilt of the past deeds of our leaders.

bruce from bryce

P.S. Why did you mention a 12 year old girl?

Dear Chief High Horse:
Twelve year old girl is analogous, I hope you have the intelligence to see that. Why do you bring ask?

I have fifty pages compiled on the extortion of Native Americans through the BIA and I've followed the current law suit vs Dept of Interior closely.

I know my ancestors raped and pillaged the Native American's. In fact, my great-grandfather dug up a an Indian's grave for a jade headdress. I do feel remorse for the plight of the Native Americans which begain the moment white-man stepped foot on this continent. Get off your high horse and quit feeling entitled to lecture me on the well documented follies of the past. I can read.

My point is simple - just b/c one get's F'ed, one shouldn't F others, canyons included. The end.

[hank moon]

WTF is James?

James is a troll that dwells in the Political Forum.