Noobs

[Iceaxe]

So... when are you no longer a noob? After descending X number of canyons? After getting some schooling? After descending [your canyon name goes here] Canyon? After descending your first '4' canyon?

What do you consider an expert canyoneer? Someone who has descended X number of canyons? Someone with a canyon merit badge? Someone who has descended [your canyon name goes here] Canyon? Someone who descends X-rated canyons?

Extra Credit: If you no longer consider yourself a noob at what point did you decide that you no longer deserved the title of noob?

Just curious where others draw the line. I'll give you my answers in a bit but I don't want to taint your answers with my notions.

[Felicia]

So... when are you no longer a noob? After descending X number of canyons? After getting some schooling? After descending [your canyon name goes here] Canyon? After descending your first '4' canyon?

I think you are no longer a noob when you are comfortable with the canyons that you have descended and the skill set that was required to descend those canyons.

I think peer training and schooling is a valuable asset. Schooling is a luxury for many, but if available - heck yes. I do believe that peer training, for me, has been invaluable. I have learned a lot over the last couple of years and all of it has been from the kindness of others.

What do you consider an expert canyoneer? Someone who has descended X number of canyons? Someone with a canyon merit badge? Someone who has descended [your canyon name goes here] Canyon? Someone who descends X-rated canyons?

To me, an expert canyoneer is someone who is having fun descending the types of canyons that I can only dream of doing with skill and style. For me, these canyons would include any combination of over 100 ft raps, with/without water, high steming, long physical days or even better - overnight stays.

As has been discussed and debated over the last several months, there is more to being an expert canyoneer than just doing the "hard stuff". The ability to meet the physical challenge goes without saying. But to posses the skills to meet each problem and produce solutions that meet the standards of the community is what places you out front. I also think that they must posses the important that safety skills - wilderness/first aid training/knowledge in case of mishap.

Extra Credit: If you no longer consider yourself a noob at what point did you decide that you no longer deserved the title of noob?

Although, I will always be a noob anytime I descend a canyon that I have not been down before, I do not consider myself a noob in the canyons that I have done. I'm comfortable with the limited skill set that is needed for my limited experience. I'm not comfortable with my limited knowledge of first aid and rescue and this does make me very nervous.

Although I enjoy doing the same canyons over and over again - good practice - I would like to do more new ones. Why - because I would like to learn new skills that will challenge me both mentally and physically. And I would like to go where I have not gone yet.

Edit: I had a sentence in the wrong paragraph regarding canyons I would like to do.

[Sombeech]

I think you're no longer a noob when you don't have to carry the rope anymore.

[rockgremlin]

When you no longer rely on the technical expertise of someone else to get you through most if not all of the known canyoneering routes.

I used to always drag my bro-in-law down with me to do some canyons simply because he was very knowledgeable with ropes and knots, and could get us out of any situation that might arise. About 2-3 years ago I decided to wise up and learn everything for myself. I now consider myself a "non-noob."


Another trait of a non-noob = knowing WHEN to commit to a canyon, and when to walk away and do it another day (based on the conditions of the canyon, ie weather, logjams, etc).

[canyonguru]

i would say that when you have guided or lead a canyon by yourself, and the people you are leading are noobs. Obviously the trip has to be successful with no mishaps, and it would have to be at least a somewhat challenging 3b lll canyon. So subway and ordervile are out so maybe like spry or even pine creek i guess would work.

My thought is when you go from following to leading it is a huge change in responsablity and comitment. just my 2 cents.

[theking648]

I always consider myself a noob no matter what it is. you can never know too much

skilled in everything expert at nothing.

so i'll be hanging out with bo beck for years to come

[Don]

i would say that when you have guided or lead a canyon by yourself, and the people you are leading are noobs. Obviously the trip has to be successful with no mishaps, and it would have to be at least a somewhat challenging 3b lll canyon. So subway and ordervile are out so maybe like spry or even pine creek i guess would work.

My thought is when you go from following to leading it is a huge change in responsablity and comitment. just my 2 cents.

I think that may be the point of the question. When would you consider yourself ready to lead/guide? Plenty of people might consider themselves ready and be mistaken or might actually be ready but not have the confidence (actually, I really doubt under-confidence is a problem in this sport). So the problem is someone thinking they are ready and not actually being ready. What is the criteria for being ready?

I'm sure I could lead noobs through the Subway or Orderville. Hell, I think I could lead safely through Pine Creek and a few others (depending on the conditions of the canyon & weather, obviously) but would I be comfortable bringing a noob along with my regular guys into Englestead or into a canyon I've never done? Hell no.
Conversely, would I be comfortable enough to even open my mouth if doing a canyon with someone whom I consider to be an expert? Only if the expert did some silly stupid risky shit that removed the respect I had for them. Otherwise I would be a follower trying to soak up something new.

Based on the number of canyons I have done. The limited time I have spent with other canyoneers, in formal training or out doing canyons. And the fact that I have tackled only one level 4 rated canyon (Engelstead, we did the bypass in Quandary). I am definitely still a noob.

[hank moon]

A related question: when it is evident that your noob buddy no longer considers himself a noob?

Answer: when he begins posting definitive answers instead of tentative questions - this can happen overnight!

[stefan]

i'm not sure what a noob is ... is it identical to a beginner? or does it precede beginner?

based on semantics alone, i would say there is a difference between a noob and a beginner.

noob comes from the word newbie, which is short for newcomer. to me a newcomer is someone who is being introduced to canyoneering for the first number of times. in a sense being a noob is the very first stage of what you could consider a beginner which is a stage that could last for awhile, depending on how you define beginner. in other words, someone could be a beginner for a long time but wouldn't be "new" to canyoneering.

[Don]

i'm not sure what a noob is ... is it identical to a beginner? or does it precede beginner?

based on semantics alone, i would say there is a difference between a noob and a beginner.

noob comes from the word newbie, which is short for newcomer. to me a newcomer is someone who is being introduced to canyoneering for the first number of times. in a sense being a noob is the very first stage of what you could consider a beginner which is a stage that could last for awhile, depending on how you define beginner. in other words, someone could be a beginner for a long time but wouldn't be "new" to canyoneering.

By that definition I'm no longer a noob! I've moved up to beginner!!

[Deathcricket]

Interesting, still being a total noob I'm just gonna guess:

Knots: Can tie a stone knot, EDK, and do a clove hitch for a biner block. Probably a couple others I'm missing (being a noob)

Anchors: Able to inspect existing anchors for damage, asess webbing, build a natural anchor, use a meat anchor.

Equipment: has enough equipment and knowledge to get out of tricky situations. Pothole escapes, swimmer raps, stemming, etc.

Knowledge: Able to research a run and make sure there aren't any nasty surprises, know about the weather and flash floods, know the rating system and when something is over their skill level, and basically not do stupid "noob" stuff like bringing a quick draw to use for a pack hang (my noob move). Able to know their physical level and not get in "over their head".

[Iceaxe]

I bet I have different guidelines than any of you in regards to who is a noob and who is an expert.....

Noob = Novice = Beginner = Newbie
I think of everyone as a noob until I have done a route or two with them. Not being disrespectful, elitist or arrogant..... I've just found that is a safe assumption until I get to know my partners skills. I usually go by the rule that my partner is trying to kill himself and me until proven otherwise.

Expert
Expert is easy for me to define. To me you are an expert if you are someone I would let my wife and kids do a canyon with in my absents.

[ratagonia]

I bet I have different guidelines than any of you in regards to who is a noob and who is an expert.....

Noob = Novice = Beginner = Newbie
I think of everyone as a noob until I have done a route or two with them. Not being disrespectful, elitist or arrogant..... I've just found that is a safe assumption until I get to know my partners skills. I usually go by the rule that my partner is trying to kill himself and me until proven otherwise.

Expert
Expert is easy for me to define. To me you are an expert if you are someone I would let my wife and kids do a canyon with in my absents.

Yeah something like that.

For me, one graduates from a NOOB to a BEGINNER when they are no longer a danger to themselves or others. Some people get there right away, some people take years.

Next stage is to lead simple canyons competently. A starting Intermediate.

Which leads to a big sliding scale. You're not really an expert until you can handle effectively ANYTHING that comes up on a canyon trip, including performing rescues, building anchors and selecting appropriate canyon companions - all of which are important skills for long-term survivability.

Tom

[tanya]

I think you're no longer a noob when you don't have to carry the rope anymore.

Oh! I have never been a Noob then.
I have had the best of non-noob partners from Day !!