Punishment for Canyon Poaching

[Iceaxe]

This spring my wife and I took a friend hers, and her husband, out to do some unexplored canyons. Without a doubt these were first descents. My wife has been climbing extensively with this couple for many years. Even so, we took the standard precautions and blindfolded the other couple. This required towing their truck for 5 miles on a short rope (later used in the canyons, but that's another story).

To begin the day we scoped the top of a canyon. It looked like the inital drop was longer than the 200-foot ropes we had so we did another canyon instead, expecting to come back to the first canyon another time.

Recently I found out this other couple poached the first canyon on a subsequent trip.

What's the standard punishment for this inexcusable canyon poaching behavior???

[uintahiker]

Hmm. Take them back to the canyon. Blindfold them again. Have them do the canyon blindfolded. Then lose them. They're looozer "friends". Real friends wouldn't poach your canyon.

[denaliguide]

life's a bitch, ain't it?

you mean that you didn't tie a pink ribbon around a juniper tree at the top of the canyon to tell others of your project?

that's what the sport climbers used to do on their rap-bolted routes, that they had rap-cleaned with a wire brush, and pre-marked the holds with chalk. granted it was a ribbon through the first bolt.

[stefan]

What's the standard punishment for this inexcusable canyon poaching behavior???

simple ... just cut 'em out of the loop on future trips to "new" canyons.

[oldgator]

There are no "Friends" on powder days or first descents/ascents.......


OG

[Iceaxe]

I'm thinking I should just send them searching for the dreaded Lost Dutchman Canyon.

[Scott Card]

I'm thinking I should just send them searching for the dreaded Lost Dutchman Canyon.

Oh, I think I've heard of that. It is next to West Behunin.

[davehuth]

Looks like the term "Poach" needs to be inserted into the Glossary...

Poach a canyon: 1) enter a canyon on private property without the permission of the land owner; 2) enter a regulated canyon (such as Zion back country) without a permit; 3) enter an unpublished canyon using location information from another individual, who you know intends to attach his/her name as the 'discoverer of the route', without said individual's knowledge. Poaching is frowned upon and can result in criminal punishment in the case of 1) or 2), or public defamation in the case of 3).

Someone who really knows the definition ought to make corrections before going to the glossary.

[Brian in SLC]

Poach a canyon: 1) enter a canyon on private property without the permission of the land owner; 2) enter a regulated canyon (such as Zion back country) without a permit; 3) enter an unpublished canyon using location information from another individual, who you know intends to attach his/her name as the 'discoverer of the route', without said individual's knowledge. Poaching is frowned upon and can result in criminal punishment in the case of 1) or 2), or public defamation in the case of 3).

Yeah, I don't know about #3. I think Shane got "scooped" more than "poached". Although, climbers use the term as such, "hey, that dude poached my line". Meaning they jumped on it before you did possibly with the knowledge that you were going to do it.

Yeah, maybe "poach" works in that case.

Also works for someone who drops in under your skin track whilst you're breaking trail skiing up hill.

Moral of this is, you gotta choose who to expose to stuff pretty carefully. Some folks is greedy, and just can't help themselves for their behavior. Good if you know this ahead of time.

Was a time here in the Wasatch, with respect to climbing, that a "red tag" on a bolt hanger meant to some that it was an open project, ready to pluck (ie, folks didn't respect the red tag). Pretty rare to see nowadays, although, I saw one a few weeks back, and, promptly pulled it (on a route that had been done for years). Shamed the poor feller into chopping his bolts, which he did and was very nice about it too.

Never heard of climbers using a "pink ribbon". Still hotly debated topic:

http://www.joekindkid.com/?p=405

-Brian in SLC

[Felicia]

Never heard of climbers using a "pink ribbon". Still hotly debated topic:

http://www.joekindkid.com/?p=405

-Brian in SLC

This was a very interesting read - thanks for the link.

[Sombeech]

wtf, blindfolding and towing their truck?

[oval]

An interesting situation...

Had you been in this area scoping it before bringing them there?

If this was the first time, why not allow them to scope it with you, and have the same option to come back later, also having "first dibs" like you, since they were there scoping it with you on the initial recon?

I'm guessing if this was the first time that the canyon was seen, they probably felt just as entitled to it as you... unless you really did blindfold them.

In any case, I'd say if you want to be the only one to have dibs on a canyon, don't bring anyone along. Or stick to just the one canyon and do the descent together, armed to the teef with lots of rope!

Sorry to hear they snagged it before you though, rough... especially since I'm guessing you had done much of the legwork before hand.

[ratagonia]

This spring my wife and I took a friend hers, and her husband, out to do some unexplored canyons. Without a doubt these were first descents. My wife has been climbing extensively with this couple for many years. Even so, we took the standard precautions and blindfolded the other couple. This required towing their truck for 5 miles on a short rope (later used in the canyons, but that's another story).

To begin the day we scoped the top of a canyon. It looked like the inital drop was longer than the 200-foot ropes we had so we did another canyon instead, expecting to come back to the first canyon another time.

Recently I found out this other couple poached the first canyon on a subsequent trip.

What's the standard punishment for this inexcusable canyon poaching behavior???

So, Shane. Tell us, oh mighty one!

What punishment was visited on you for poaching this canyon? Or is this a clever way for the canyon-prospect-holders to determine what punishment would be appropriate for you? A jury of peers???

T

[Scott Card]

T

Ahh, Moses shaved, fell over and is laughing. Everything OK?

[paul4886]

I have heard this concept of 'poaching' used before within the community of canyoneers.
The term 'poaching' conjers up illegal none licensed usage of resources.
Therefore I ask.. since when does any one person's discovery of a canyon route constitute legal or inplied 'license' to that route?
It seems to me this is more of a human species age old need to hoard or posess knowledge of resources based on a responses found in lower brain stem activity.

[Scott Card]

I have heard this concept of 'poaching' used before within the community of canyoneers.
The term 'poaching' conjers up illegal none licensed usage of resources.
Therefore I ask.. since when does any one person's discovery of a canyon route constitute legal or inplied 'license' to that route?
It seems to me this is more of a human species age old need to hoard or posess knowledge of resources based on a responses found in lower brain stem activity.

This is neither a legal or licensing issue. It is a moral or better still an issue of canyon etiquette. To poach a canyon is akin to asking your girlfriend for a kiss and then burping in her mouth mid-kiss --violates no law and you don't need a license to be rude. But it still is just wrong

[Jaxx]

mabey they didn't know you were still working on it because they couldn't find any red tags on it...

[paul4886]

So if I were to head into and complete a canyon route when some sign indicating that "this is John/Jane Doe's' canyon.. I found this first.. stay out until I say so" then if for dinner that night I 'poached" two eggs then kissed a girl friend and burped into her mouth I would be doubly guilty of improper canyoneering etiquette and therefore stripped of my canyoneering gear, forced to poach Wasatch Hiking Club's routes as well as banned from the annual singles canyoneering get together day at Santhrax?

[Scott Card]

So if I were to head into and complete a canyon route when some sign indicating that "this is John/Jane Doe's' canyon.. I found this first.. stay out until I say so" then if for dinner that night I 'poached" two eggs then kissed a girl friend and burped into her mouth I would be doubly guilty of improper canyoneering etiquette and therefore stripped of my canyoneering gear, forced to poach Wasatch Hiking Club's routes as well as banned from the annual singles canyoneering get together day at Santhrax?

Pretty much.....

You would be a canyon cad and you should move to a new state and change your name since everyone knows that egg burps are so foul that your reputation would be tarnished probably forever.

[paul4886]

Ok. Note to self. "Don't poach a route and don't pouch eggs back at camp".