the Totem: would like your opinions

[stefan]

There has been a substantial demand for the Totem. Enough that it will soon be available through retailers.

does this mean the price will remain the same?

[Felicia]

Oval,

If you were genuinely interested, you would have asked your questions on the ACA forums.....

FWIW - I've enjoyed this tread here on Bogley. I like gear, and the Totem looks interesting. And, as Shane likes to say, for those of us that are playing at home - I'm learning about several different types of devices and riggings for different reasons/purposes. Thanks

[oval]

Oval,

If you were genuinely interested, you would have asked your questions on the ACA forums where there are many people who have actually used the Totem and would be happy to share their opinions.

I did. Same issues that I brought up here. You can read it again here: http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/s...?t=2500&page=9
Your total response to everything I asked was:

Perfectoval,

Guessing you have never actually seen or used a Totem.

Yes, I am very aware of the Yates Belay Slave. It is the device I provided to canyoneering clients in the early/mid-90s when I was guiding.

That was the total extent of your answer. Two other people answered a total of about 5 sentences. Not exactly answering any of my questions. So I turned elsewhere for input. I'm sorry if you were/are offended, I'm just trying to pick out what makes it so great.

Of course it is true that you can accomplish many things with a simple $9.95 figure eight. So why do people spend $34.95 for a Pirana? After all, it is just a funny-shaped figure eight. They do because the Pirana allows them to do some of the things that a regular figure eight will do more efficiently or effectively. Same is true with the Totem.

You can rig a releasable figure eight block with a $9.95 figure eight or a $34.95 Pirana. But you can do it better with a Totem. No need to worry about that twist, which is the correct direction for the twist, etc. Releasable rig with the Totem virtually eliminates any chance of it binding. If you've never rigged a releasable figure eight and had it bind on you, it is unlikely you will be able to perceive that value. Cool. Stick with your $9.95 figure eight.

Many similar examples of the Totem doing the same things you can do with a figure eight or GiGi -- but doing them all much more efficiently and effectively -- and several things that you cannot do with either a figure eight or a GiGi. You will never know from looking at photos. Stop by my shop in Cedar City someday and I'll let you play around with one.

I guess the whole issue comes down to "how much more effectively" does one need... let alone how much more effective is the totem? IMO, locking off any rap device is pretty easy. There are already plenty of options for all rap/belay devices to add extra friction with ease... how much more do you need? Wet disconnects can already be dealt with several different ways, whether with different devices or rope techniques. There are loads of options for releasable systems, or isolating 2 strands of the rope. Heck, you can even use a simple Garda hitch to autoblock belay and/or ascend... you don't even need a atc guide or a GiGi... just some biners. I guess I just don't see the "ease factor" going up significantly with a Totem. In some ways, I see it as being potentially more confusing and/or tangled and complicated.


I've never felt the need for a pirana either... I'd take a Totem over a pirana if I was going to choose one or the other, fwiw. If you think a releasable figure 8 is the only way to "virtually eliminate binding" while accomplishing the task, well, there are plenty of alternate methods out there, you certainly don't have to stick with a releasable figure 8... options abound. I guess the issue comes down to degrees... I get all my basic essentials with an 8 or an atc-guide and a bit of knowledge.

My question still stands, however. I'd like to hear about the autoblock/GiGi/Plaquette mode of the Totem. It isn't shown in the video, and it is only staticly pictured in the ACA totem thread. Just asking for some feedback on this. I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm trying to find out about this method of use. I've had a GiGi that I beat the crap out of climbing and canyoning... love the setup... just want to find out if it works, as I'm having a hard time visualizing it with belay plate length slots... I've never seen a plate with a slot length that is good at both belaying and autoblock belaying at the same time... that's why I'm so riveted on this question.

I'm really not trying to dis the Totem Rich... I think it's a cool device for what it is, I just started this thread to see if there was some configuration that I was totally missing by not owning the Totem. From what I've heard so far, it makes adding friction easier mid rappel, but that's about it.

Hopefully I'll get a chance to fondle one soon. Maybe it will change my mind to see it in action. Other people like it, and that's good to hear, I guess just from what I've "seen" so far, their posts aren't enough to convince me that its amazingly better than a regular 8. I'm sure I'll check one out soon enough. :D

[Iceaxe]

If you were genuinely interested, you would have asked your questions on the ACA forums where there are many people who have actually used the Totem and would be happy to share their opinions.

... .... That's like going to the BYU forum and asking what's the best religion.

After reading through the responses on Bogley it appears to me that a nice cross section of opinions have been expressed. Including "many people who have actually used the Totem".

[hank moon]

Any rappel method that can be "undone" without undoing a carabiner is highly dangerous... IMO. You can rig a normal 8 in "stop and go" (similar to a stone 8 configuration)... but it's way to easy to unloop it over the horn.

Care to amend the "any"? There are many rap devices that can be threaded and de-threaded w/o touching a carabiner. All as "safe" as anything else...

[oval]

I was talking about "fig-8 methods". I have yet to need a rack for rappelling.

[Bo_Beck]

I was talking about "fig-8 methods". I have yet to need a rack for rappelling.

WoW! You're missing out! I love my HB Mini Rack with Brake Bars. Too bad HB no longer is around! I have lowered 3 people with gear and a litter hundreds of feet; have rappelled from the top of Angels Landing; used it many times to come out of Heaps etc. The stainless bars are awesome for sharpening my Puma; Enough mass that after a long rappel I can warm a cup of tea; Pick-offs are quick and easy; Heavy enough that if needed I could use it as a weapon against a lion attack; Last trip in Heaps (3 weeks ago) I brought down Elaine with me to save time! On the fly friction adjustment with the 2 hyper-bars. I haven't tried rigging it sideways, upside down, through the slot, inside of a hollow bar or any other config. yet, but you are giving me some GREAT Ideas! Really though....I have found that an ATC pretty much has always been just fine for personal use. I have never had a problem using one. Don't wear gloves, never burnt my hands or fingers, have used it to lower others....maybe if I were heavier I would change my tune? I've had to climb back up A LOT and I find that ascenders, tiblocs, prussiks and or climbing skills have worked just fine thus far!?

Enough said...I would still love to play with a TOTEM!

[rcwild]

Enough said...I would still love to play with a TOTEM!

I'll ship one out to you this week, Bo.

[Bo_Beck]

Enough said...I would still love to play with a TOTEM!

I'll ship one out to you this week, Bo.

Awesome Rich! I really, really need to take the time to participate in some of your workshops one of these days! I got this new DVD the other day (I think its called "Means of Production"?) that is a group of Britts navigating Class 6 canyons in their Kayaks all over the world! DANG it looks fun and makes me want to learn some "swiftwater canyon" techniques. You DA MAN Rich! Not sure if this link will have the "Trailer"?

http://www.vasentertainment.com/featuredfilms.php

The link only opens VAS Entertainment; Go to Kayaking- and click on Means Of Production to see the Video Trailer! It's AWESOME!

[rcwild]

Awesome Rich! I really, really need to take the time to participate in some of your workshops one of these days! I got this new DVD the other day (I think its called "Means of Production"?) that is a group of Britts navigating Class 6 canyons in their Kayaks all over the world! DANG it looks fun and makes me want to learn some "swiftwater canyon" techniques. You DA MAN Rich! Not sure if this link will have the "Trailer"?

Cool video, Bo. Thank you for the link. The record for waterfall drops in a kayak has been broken and re-broken lately. Now over 200 feet. Those guys are crazy.

The offer I made to you a few years ago still stands -- you are welcome to take any course I teach as my guest. It's the lease I can do, considering all you do for Zion SAR. You might also consider having Desert Rat host some ACA courses. My Canyons & Crags does not have an exclusive deal on courses.

I am working on another project -- canyon rescue related -- that I know will interest you. I'll keep you in the loop via private emails.

[rcwild]

Peter,

First ... you are using different usernames, so I did not make the connection. I went back and reread your post on the ACA forum. Your post seemed more like negative comments to me than actual questions ... except for the one about the Yates Belay Slave, which I answered. Others responded to your comments about the Totem being bulky, so I didn't see a reason to repeat.

I'm not sure if I am doing a very poor job communicating or if you are being selective in your reading. Either way, I'll try to address a few of your issues.

It needs to be clear that the Totem does not have an ATC (tube) mode. The mode Don mentioned in his post is more accurately described as a Sticht Plate mode. Using the Totem, people are calling this throttle mode. The length of the Totem provides a lever that can be used to add or subtract friction - like a throttle. When using two strands of rope, the strands can be inserted into separate slots. When using one strand of rope, it is important to make a loop in the rope so you can insert one strand from the loop into each slot. One rope in one slot without the twist won't provide enough friction for all but very very light people.

Also important to note that in throttle mode, the Totem is not attached to the carabiner. It can get away from you, like it did in Don's situation. If you have your rope length set to rappel into water, you can also lose it when it comes off the end of the rope. I recommend people attach it to their harness with a tether. And, as Don pointed out, Throttle mode is not recommended for awkward starts. People who use throttle mode think it is really cool. It is. But I wouldn't use it as my primary rigging mode. It is ideal for long rappels where you might want to add a little friction near the bottom.

The distinction between tube mode and Sticht Plate mode is important when addressing Peter's question about the slot length. For those unfamiliar with a Sticht Plate, it is a flat piece of metal with two slots in it. Tube devices are an improvement over a Sticht Plate because their thickness provides more surface area, thus greater friction.

Plate or plaquette mode (ala Kong GiGi) comes in handy for belaying two climbing partners at the same time. I used it extensively when guiding climbing clients on multi-pitch routes. Ropes going down to each climber are passed through the slots (one rope per slot) in such a way that the climber's weight will lock off them off on their rope. One climber makes a couple moves as the belayer (leader) pulls their rope through the plate. Second climber makes a couple moves while the belayer pulls their rope through the plate and so on. If either climber falls, their rope is locked off automatically, so the belayer can control one brake strand in each hand.

The Petzl Reverso may have been the first tube device to add a second connection point so it can be used in plate mode. Black Diamond followed with their ATC Guide. Then the Petzl Reverso3. At the OR Show I noticed other gear companies with similar devices. All are designed to add versatility by allowing one device to serve as rappel device, normal belay device, plus plate belay device.

Comparing the Totem's slots to the slots of an ATC Guide is not comparing apples to apples. Both are 1 9/16" compared to 2" for the Kong GiGi. But the ATC Guide is a tube device with deep slots. The Totem is more like a Sticht Plate. Peter contends that no one plate device can do a good job at both normal belaying and plate (autoblocking) mode belaying. He hasn't said what devices he has tried that led him to this judgment. Trango Magic? Salewa Guide Evo? ATC Guide? Reverso? Reverso3?

Prior to making a prototype of the Totem, I went out with a fiend to test the ATC Guide. I belayed him from above using 8mm, 9.2mm, 10mm and 10.3mm ropes. It ran smoothly on all of the ropes. I was a little concerned about holding power on an 8mm rope so I made the slots shorter on the first prototype. Holding power was fine on 8mm, but thicker ropes - 10 and 10.3 - didn't run as smooth as I wanted, so I made them longer on the final prototypes. As it turned out, holding power on an 8mm was quite satisfactory after all.

The production version of the Totem has been used to belay in several "normal" modes -- rope through slot and into carabiner, rope through small hole and into carabiner, standard figure eight, canyon -- plus a few I can't even describe. And yes, it has been tested in plate mode with two climbers using all rope combinations mentioned above.

[rcwild]

I think Peter misunderstood one of my comments about releasable figure eights. I wasn't saying that the releasable figure eight will "virtually eliminate binding". I meant if you are using releasable figure eights, the way you do it with a Totem will virtually eliminate binding compared to the way it is rigged with a regular figure eight.

There are three parts to all releasable rigs (aka contingency anchors). 1. the friction mechanism that will allow you to lower someone if the need arises; 2. the releasable-under-tension mechanism; and 3. the safety mechanism that will keep the rig from releasing accidentally.

When you rig a releasable figure eight block, the rope is rigged on the eight in standard mode (friction mechanism). Next you pass a bight of rope back through the large hole of the eight and wrap it around the small end (releasable-under-tension mechanism). Then you clip a carabiner through the small hole and onto the slack side of the rope or onto the anchor (safety mechanism).

The problem is ... because the releasable-under-tension mechanism is rigged between the figure eight and the rappel ring, it is under pressure when loaded. On occasion it will bind up in such a way that it prevents release. Fix is fairly simple. Clip your safety tether into the big hole of your figure eight and put some weight on it to pull the eight away from the rappel ring.

The fix is unnecessary with the Totem. Rig the friction mechanism with the rope going over the long (slot) end. Rig the releasable-under-tension mechanism by passing the rope up through one of the slots and over the small end. Then rig the safety mechanism the same as you would with a normal figure eight. The releasable-under-tension mechanism is now on the side of the Totem away from the rappel ring and cannot get bound up.

[oval]

Peter,

First ... you are using different usernames, so I did not make the connection. I went back and reread your post on the ACA forum. Your post seemed more like negative comments to me than actual questions ... except for the one about the Yates Belay Slave, which I answered. Others responded to your comments about the Totem being bulky, so I didn't see a reason to repeat.

Yes, Perfectoval and Oval are a bit different. Now you know for sure that it is me.

It seems to me that once someone is on your "bad side", suddenly everything is taken in a negative light, Rich. I made some observations and asked a question about the Totem (it's large, what can it do that can't be done by other devices? does the autoblock mode feed well?) and asked for people's experience. No one gave me time of day for the autoblock/plaquette positioning question. It's clear that you were offended since you viewed it as an "attack" on your idea when really all it was was a "looking for feedback on potential issues I see" comment. I even offered the idea of perhaps improving your device by combining some of your ideas with a smaller version, or spinning part of it off of the Yates Belay Slave... which again you took as an insult that I was saying you didn't know what it was. Seems I can't win with you anyway that I slice it.

The production version of the Totem has been used to belay in several "normal" modes -- rope through slot and into carabiner, rope through small hole and into carabiner, standard figure eight, canyon -- plus a few I can't even describe. And yes, it has been tested in plate mode with two climbers using all rope combinations mentioned above.

This is the simple answer that I was looking for, so thanks! I now know that I can expect it to autoblock on static rope from 8-10mm and that it will feed ok. You have answered yes, and that was what I was looking for. I look forward to testing this out for myself. If it can do a 10mm, I might be interested.

The distinction between tube mode and Sticht Plate mode is important when addressing Peter's question about the slot length. For those unfamiliar with a Sticht Plate, it is a flat piece of metal with two slots in it. Tube devices are an improvement over a Sticht Plate because their thickness provides more surface area, thus greater friction.

Splitting some hairs here, but tube gives the device distance from the carabiner, which eliminates binding. This was the main reason for the development of tube style devices. It's why "plates" had springs added to them originally... to keep them from binding against the belay biner.

Comparing the Totem's slots to the slots of an ATC Guide is not comparing apples to apples. Both are 1 9/16" compared to 2" for the Kong GiGi. But the ATC Guide is a tube device with deep slots. The Totem is more like a Sticht Plate. Peter contends that no one plate device can do a good job at both normal belaying and plate (autoblocking) mode belaying. He hasn't said what devices he has tried that led him to this judgment. Trango Magic? Salewa Guide Evo? ATC Guide? Reverso? Reverso3?

I happen to have used the GiGi, as I have stated already. And an ATC guide and Reverso and B-52. I'm not sure why that matters since my point is that any PLAQUETTE model does not allow belaying in schhhhhtict plate mode because the slots are too long to do such a thing due to inadequate friction. Kong instructs you to not use it as a belay device unless rigged in plaquette mode... no belay plate allowed. Trango magic only authorizes autoblock mode in their instructions.

Then, to look at the TUBE style devices: the ATC guide and the Reverso, you can see that they have a distance of height from the belay biner and an offset anchor-attach point and therefore have shorter slots that allow enough friction to be maintained when belaying in tube mode, while being able to move rope smoothly through the slots in autoblock mode due to the depth and offset anchor attachment.

So my answer is no: I haven't ever seen a smoothly running flat PLATE device that can be used to belay in PLAQUETTE mode and in shchchtickt PLATE mode. I've only seen TUBES that can do both belay modes, but never have I seen a flat plate device that can do both and give enough friction. Nor have I seen any instructions that recommends using a flat autoblocking device to be used in s.plate mode. Again, I look forward to checking it out since you claim otherwise; sounds like I need to see it to believe it.

I think Peter misunderstood one of my comments about releasable figure eights. I wasn't saying that the releasable figure eight will "virtually eliminate binding". I meant if you are using releasable figure eights, the way you do it with a Totem will virtually eliminate binding compared to the way it is rigged with a regular figure eight.

Or you could simply use a tube-style device and tie it off with a Mule knot instead. Or use a Munter Mule. If you are that worried about binding, I'd suggest an alternate option. You could even provide an active belayer to hold a device locked off if you are THAT WORRIED about someone loosing control and getting caught by the rope while in a hydraulic. Like I said, lots of options available.

[rcwild]

It seems to me that once someone is on your "bad side", suddenly everything is taken in a negative light, Rich. I made some observations and asked a question about the Totem (it's large, what can it do that can't be done by other devices? does the autoblock mode feed well) and asked for people's experience. No one gave me time of day for the autoblock/plaquette positioning question. It's clear that you were offended since you viewed it as an "attack" on your idea when really all it was was a "looking for feedback on potential issues I see" comment. I even offered the idea of perhaps improving your device by combining some of your ideas with a smaller version, or spinning part of it off of the Yates Belay Slave... which again you took as an insult that I was saying you didn't know what it was. Seems I can't win with you anyway that I slice it.

You are misinterpreting, Peter. I and several other people assumed you were just another sock puppet and intended to ignore you completely. Debated whether or not I should even approve your post, but I did. Spoke to some people over the weekend who still don't think you are a real person. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt now, in part because I seem to recall a Peter Springs on the Yahoo Canyons Group back when I still owned it. I do think you have a hidden agenda, but only you know for sure.

I don't expect to sell thousands of Totems. Far from it. I know it is a specialty item that will appeal to some; not to others. I am okay with that and your critiques don't bother me. But don't be offended because I choose not to completely redesign it based on one person's comments, especially since those comments come from someone who has never even used it.

Capitalism and free market at work here. If everyone was happy with a plain old figure eight or GiGi we would not have -- round eights, square eights, eights with tabs, eights with ears, rescue eights, mini eights, Double Eights, Pirana, ATC, ATC XP, ATC Guide, ATC Sport, Reverso, Reversino, Reverso3, Verso, SBG, Pyramid, Jaws, B52, Ovo, Ghost, Trango Magic, Salewa Guide Evo, BRD, Variable Controller, VC Pro II, Single Rope Controller, etc, etc, etc.

[oval]

You are misinterpreting, Peter. I and several other people assumed you were just another sock puppet and intended to ignore you completely. Debated whether or not I should even approve your post, but I did. Spoke to some people over the weekend who still don't think you are a real person. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt now, in part because I seem to recall a Peter Springs on the Yahoo Canyons Group back when I still owned it. I do think you have a hidden agenda, but only you know for sure.

Wow, tell me how you really feel, LOL! You are either paranoid or egotistical or maybe you just have a lot of enemies that you are worried about... or perhaps all of the above.

I've never met you in person, Rich, but it's safe to say that if that's how you deal with someone who posts a nearly identical post here (which I'd say was a great discussion with some good feedback) and is worried about even approving them to have a discussion, stomping on what "hidden agenda" they might have, or if they are a "sock puppet" of one of your enemies... well, I feel extremely sorry for you as a person. Good luck with "your" forums over there.

[cookiecutter]

Maybe a beaten to death thread, but I quite like the totem. Can't give any personal experience, sorry, but large number of possibilities right in front of me in one item is appealing. The less gear I can carry the better. But chalk it up on the list of wants: aca tech canyoneering course, imlay pack, totem..etc. a poor college kid is priced out. Cool goals though!

[rcwild]

Wow, tell me how you really feel, LOL! You are either paranoid or egotistical or maybe you just have a lot of enemies that you are worried about... or perhaps all of the above.

I've never met you in person, Rich, but it's safe to say that if that's how you deal with someone who posts a nearly identical post here (which I'd say was a great discussion with some good feedback) and is worried about even approving them to have a discussion, stomping on what "hidden agenda" they might have, or if they are a "sock puppet" of one of your enemies... well, I feel extremely sorry for you as a person. Good luck with "your" forums over there.

You have an interesting way of twisting words around.

[Iceaxe]

large number of possibilities right in front of me in one item is appealing. The less gear I can carry the better.

I'm not seeing how you would get by with less gear packing a Totem..... I normally carry a rappel device (ATC XP), Tiblocs, several biners, webbing, some accessory chord and my rope when doing a normal tech canyon with friends.

So my question is.... how does the Totem eliminate any gear? I can see swapping out one piece of gear for anther but I'm not really lightening my load which is what I'm usually striving to do.

What gear are you guys packing that a Totem would eliminate? Are you lightening your loads and/or eliminating gear or just swapping one item for anther?

[rcwild]

... But chalk it up on the list of wants: aca tech canyoneering course, imlay pack, totem..etc. a poor college kid is priced out. Cool goals though!

Nobody should ever let money stand in their way of pursuing training from the ACA. Send me a private email at rcwild at mac dot com. We'll work something out for you.

[cookiecutter]

Nobody should ever let money stand in their way of pursuing training from the ACA. Send me a private email at rcwild at mac dot com. We'll work something out for you.

E-mail sent. Thanks!