Zion - Canyon Overlook Parking Lot to Close

[ratagonia]

I do believe limiting the people in Pine Creek will enhance the experience.

For the few people who draw the permit, perhaps.

But seriously, looking for a wilderness experience in Pine Creek is like a fish riding a bicycle... er, something...

T

[JoeAllen]

I am not seeking a wilderness experience in Pine Creek. The fact is, I have avoided it because of the crowds, noise, and pollution. It is a beautiful canyon and I have enjoyed it many times in the past. Limiting the number of people in the canyon would reduce the crowds. If the Park is going to eliminate the parking lot, then it makes sense that they would reduce the number of permits they issue. The other option is to create a new, larger parking lot, which is logistically unrealistic, or provide a shuttle through the tunnel. Parking is a problem. If they opened up the highway for anyone to park anywhere then the canyon could be destroyed. Social trails would appear all over the place.

Debating the topic in this format is a moot point. The Park is closing the parking lot. The result of their study will determine if the lot will close permanently. The issue of reducing permit numbers will then be analysed. At that point there may be something to get worked up over. In the mean time, write the superintendant and your congressman. I, myself, am indifferent to the outcome.

[Iceaxe]

Limiting the number of people in the canyon would reduce the crowds.

My guess is it will just push the "crowd" into anther area/canyon.....

kinda like cops and drug dealers..... 5-0 push da hoppers off one corner an' dey just move ta anther.... an' da real problem never gets solved......


When its my turn to be God I'll run a shuttle bus to the east entrance and back every 30 minutes.... that should do more to help with "quiet and pristine" than all the permits, parking lot removals and DUI check points combined......

[oval]

I would take a trade...

...trade 20 slots from Pine Creek to 5 more in Mystery per day, plus 5 more in Imlay, plus 5 more in X,Y,Z... you get the idea. Why is Pine Creek so stacked, and yet the others are capped out at 12 or less? Makes no sense to me...

Peter

[Scott Card]

Why is Pine Creek so stacked, and yet the others are capped out at 12 or less? Makes no sense to me...

Peter

You have correctly identified the eighth mystery of the world, a wonder of the universe, a trick that defies reason and logic....

[ratagonia]

Why is Pine Creek so stacked, and yet the others are capped out at 12 or less? Makes no sense to me...

Peter

The permit system is built on roughly freezing the canyon use levels at that when they initially did the study, in 1999. At that time, few of the canyons saw much action, outside of Pine Creek, Orderville, The Narrows and The Subway - thus those canyons are in the "Primitive Zone", while almost all other canyons are in the "Pristine Zone".

If you're REALLY interested, a LOT of information is available here:

http://canyoneeringusa.com/zcc/process.htm

and hunt around from there.

Tom

[oval]

Thanks Tom, I look at your site (and yours too, mr ICEAXED!) frequently but have never seen that page.

This is one of my beefs with the national parks in general, I suppose. I personally like hiking off trail, and like camping/bivying in random spots when on a climbing/canyoning excursion. What I've never actually seen in print is anything that directly prohibits such a thing... the day that I see "you are prohibited by law to go off-trail anywhere in the NP" is the day I give up on the NPs completely for my wilderness experience.

Anyhow, I still have a couple more of those pages to read, but thanks for that info, very good.

ps- the un-named canyons that aren't on the Zion NP website for reservations... is it required that you get a permit for them? I've never seen anything that actually says as much, though I'm guessing for anything technical they'd want you to get a permit.

[ratagonia]

ps- the un-named canyons that aren't on the Zion NP website for reservations... is it required that you get a permit for them? I've never seen anything that actually says as much, though I'm guessing for anything technical they'd want you to get a permit.

The "Law" is the Superintendent's Compendium

http://preview.tinyurl.com/mtkh5o (pdf)

which says:

[quote=Superintendent's Compendium]

(a)(2)(i) A permit is required for the following activities:
- Any through day hike of any tributary of the North Fork of the Virgin River, regardless of direction of travel.
- Any hike along any portion of the Subway route from the Northgate Peaks Trail to the Left Fork Trailhead, regardless of direction of travel, to include all portions of the Left Fork of North Creek drainage between Russell Gulch and the Left Fork Trailhead exit trail.
- Any hike within any canyon in the park which normally involves the use of rope, webbing, or other device for descent or ascent.
- All travel above the Moki Steps in Orderville Canyon.
- All travel above Big Spring in the North Fork of the Virgin River.

Justification: Due to the unique and often-times pristine quality of Zion

[bruce from bryce]

Off trail hiking is not necessarily prohibited, but most often is not allowed in areas of high use trails. An example is in the main ampitheater at Bryce where if you were to go off trail you would be putting yourself at risk. Plus it would create more social trails and corner cutting. Any where else in Bryce off trail hiking is discouraged but not specifically prohibited.

And, I would suggest that the same also goes for Zion, and for the same reasons.

bruce from bryce

[trackrunner]

Limiting the number of people in the canyon would reduce the crowds.

IMHO if you really want to reduce crowds & improve saftey: close the canyon overlook trail. Most people trying to park in the area are hiking that trail. An optional east side shuttle would reduce the crowding of traffic since parking is so limited on the entire east side. Ban overside vehichles using the tunnel the reason for the traffic jams (not hikers or canyoneers).

Epic accidents each of the first two or three days of this new policy because of the parking spaces may get things reversed. Remember the epic kayaking this spring got the narrows closed.

Wonder if it's closed now if someone can get a protest permit for the lot. Not that I'm motivated to apply just curious what uses there are for the lot.

[Iceaxe]

This is one of my beefs with the national parks in general, I suppose. I personally like hiking off trail, and like camping/bivying in random spots when on a climbing/canyoning excursion.

I agree with you on this, which is why I seldom visit Zion any more. While I think the canyons are awesome the Zion power brokers work too hard at making the experience more akin to visiting Disneyland.

Personally I always liked the idea of herding the masses into Pine Creek and Keyhole (if they are going to have quota

[ratagonia]

bump....

[UtahAdventureGuide]

There are 1000's of accidents on I-15 every day because it's 'overcrowded', it's dangerous to the public and the highway patrol. Does that mean they should close it or restrict access? why don't they just build a bigger parking lot? oh, because it's in a National Park and I'm sure the Tree Huggers wouldn't allow it. Screw Zion, there's plenty of parking in the Swell.

[Jaxx]

why not run a shuttle from the VC to the parking lot there. Have the bus back into the parking lot drop people off and then go back down. Stopping traffic would be needed while backing up and getting back into the lane. Problem solved. Where are my millions in grant money to study the effect this would have?

[ratagonia]

For the sake of discussion, allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment. What is the current daily allotment of permits for Pine Creek? Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe 50 are available every day. How many canyoneers enjoy descending through Pine Creek with 50 other people? I sure don't. Conversely, on how many days in any given year are all 50 permits taken? I don't have an answer, but I would be interested to find out. My guess is that there are more days that have less than 10 people in the canyon than days where 50 people are in it. By restricting access to Pine Creek under the guise of protecting the safety of park visitors and employees, and reducing the number of permits available, the Park is in essence giving us the opportunity to experience Pine Creek in a more quiet, pristine environment.

One of the objectives of the Backcountry Plan is provide a "variety of recreation opportunities". The park already manages 95% of Zion Canyons with a focus on "very few social encounters". For there to be a "variety of opportunities", there should be a FEW canyons where permits are pretty easy to get, and one would expect social encounters. Pine Creek, Keyhole, Subway (not easy to get) and Orderville are the few technical canyons in this class. If you really want solitude, there are many, many places to get that in Zion - but let's not use the full force of the Federal Gov'mint to add Pine Creek to that list.

As you mention, there are many, many opportunities to experience Pine Creek without crowding. Try off-season, on weekdays, with a bit of an early start or a latish start - all of these strategies generally work if your goal is to have the canyon to yourself.

Tom

[jiveassmother]

They just extended the closure for further review until Sept 13th. Please call your friends, family, ex-girlfriend (if she's still speaking to you), everyone you can to send in comments so we can let them know how you feel and any other ideas for what they could do.

Superintendent
Zion National Park
Springdale, UT 84767