Thank You Tom

[sarahlizzy]

I want to post a message of thanks to Tom for all his help with advice and the loan of equipment for our trip here to Zion. It really has contributed to making our trip much more enjoyable, and also educational. In particular, I've learned how much easier things are with rope bags, and while I thought rapping on anything smaller than 9mm static was something I wasn't ready for, I've also learned what really nice rope that 8.3mm red and yellow rope they sell at ZAC is. If anything, it seemed like it had more friction than my 9mm Mammut SRT performance static, and with a biner on my leg loop (which I think will henceforth be a standard part of my rappel technique), descending using it was a very smooth and well controlled experience.

This had paid off commercially too! Of the UK contingent, myself and Zoe are now the proud owners of a couple of Imlay Canyon Gear rope bags (we're total converts), and were it not for luggage space issues for the flight home, I think I'd have bought 120 feet of that lovely 8.3mm rope too.

So thank you once again - we really appreciate it, and have had a fantastic time here.

Pine Creek tomorrow... should be a lot of fun!

Sarah

[zoeimogen]

Seconded - Thanks, Tom. Also, I was somewhat impressed by the size of your fish collection in your carport. :-)

[sarahlizzy]

I was somewhat impressed by the size of your fish collection in your carport. :-)

I know, right? I feel like such a noob - I haven't even worn out one belay device yet.

[ratagonia]

I was somewhat impressed by the size of your fish collection in your carport. :-)

I know, right? I feel like such a noob - I haven't even worn out one belay device yet.

Personally, I am so glad you escaped harm in Mystery Canyon, and hopefully had a wonderful trip. Next year, I hope circumstance allows us to get a canon in together.

The Fish in the carport are from several years of Zion Adventure company guiding - which I volunteered to bring up to Salt lake city for recycling, but found something better to do with them...

Tom

[moab mark]

I was somewhat impressed by the size of your fish collection in your carport. :-)

I know, right? I feel like such a noob - I haven't even worn out one belay device yet.

Personally, I am so glad you escaped harm in Mystery Canyon, and hopefully had a wonderful trip. Next year, I hope circumstance allows us to get a canon in together.

The Fish in the carport are from several years of Zion Adventure company guiding - which I volunteered to bring up to Salt lake city for recycling, but found something better to do with them...

Tom

I'm guessing these fish must be worn out pirana's?

Mark

[zoeimogen]

I'm guessing these fish must be worn out pirana's?

Worn nearly half way through the metal - it's reassuring to see how much use they can take before needing to be retired. (Plus educational, so we know when to bin our own kit)

[sarahlizzy]

Personally, I am so glad you escaped harm in Mystery Canyon, and hopefully had a wonderful trip. Next year, I hope circumstance allows us to get a canon in together.

Perhaps there's stuff we could have done to avoid the situation we encountered in Mystery, with starting earlier being the obvious one. Given what did happen, I think/hope we did the right thing by a) seeking higher ground when it started raining, and b), when we rapped into the narrows, roping together for the hike out. We also had enough equipment on us to spend the night if we needed to - stuff for cooking, emergency blankets, and so on. If we'd arrived at the narrows 15 minutes later, it would have been dark, and we'd have spent the night regardless.

It's been a valuable lesson in how quickly things can turn nasty anyway, and I guess learning lessons without injury is the best way to learn them.

The Fish in the carport are from several years of Zion Adventure company guiding - which I volunteered to bring up to Salt lake city for recycling, but found something better to do with them...

We were quite in awe when we saw that! My ATC-XP has only just started to get a groove in it. I figure it has plenty of canyons left in it yet. I also use it for belaying at our local climbing gym, but that hardly causes any wear at all (It's not even warm after belaying someone off a route).

[sarahlizzy]

Next year, I hope circumstance allows us to get a canon in together.

That would be really great, if possible. I'm sure there are bad habits we've started to develop unawares, and it would be really nice to do something like Englestead, but the idea of doing the entry rap/raps without someone more experienced is ... not enticing, especially after reading reports of two falls there within the last month (although I'd start with the rope through a leg loop biner, and a couple of wiregates ready to convert to a Z-rig if/when needed).

[ratagonia]

Perhaps there's stuff we could have done to avoid the situation we encountered in Mystery, with starting earlier being the obvious one. Given what did happen, I think/hope we did the right thing by a) seeking higher ground when it started raining, and b), when we rapped into the narrows, roping together for the hike out. We also had enough equipment on us to spend the night if we needed to - stuff for cooking, emergency blankets, and so on. If we'd arrived at the narrows 15 minutes later, it would have been dark, and we'd have spent the night regardless.

It's been a valuable lesson in how quickly things can turn nasty anyway, and I guess learning lessons without injury is the best way to learn them.

Early starts are usually a good idea.

Roping together in moving water is usually a BAD idea. Being on a rope in moving water is hazardous to your health. Better would be to links arms and walk with 4 legs in pairs, if and when needed.

Tom

[Deeps]

I'm guessing these fish must be worn out pirana's?

Worn nearly half way through the metal - it's reassuring to see how much use they can take before needing to be retired. (Plus educational, so we know when to bin our own kit)

I noticed some of our group in Spry had grooves in their Piranha. My brand new one didn't, so I thought it was some kind of alternate version that had grooves to help guide the rope. NOOB! I asked the guys about it and they explained it was from use, and that the integrity of the device was solid until the Piranha was rubbed about half way through. I'd replace mine before it wears as far as theirs had. Maybe that will change with time... But the thought of the device failing and a sharp edge shredding rope is unsettling, regardless of how irrational it may be.

[moab mark]

I'm guessing these fish must be worn out pirana's?

Worn nearly half way through the metal - it's reassuring to see how much use they can take before needing to be retired. (Plus educational, so we know when to bin our own kit)

I noticed some of our group in Spry had grooves in their Piranha. My brand new one didn't, so I thought it was some kind of alternate version that had grooves to help guide the rope. NOOB! I asked the guys about it and they explained it was from use, and that the integrity of the device was solid until the Piranha was rubbed about half way through. I'd replace mine before it wears as far as theirs had. Maybe that will change with time... But the thought of the device failing and a sharp edge shredding rope is unsettling, regardless of how irrational it may be.

Tom, do you feel friction is lost due to the rope grooves? All of mine are getting a pretty good groove. The ones my wife and kids use I have flipped over so they could wear on a new area. They have no clue what or how to use the hooks etc. this way I can get a longer life out of each device.

Mark

[Iceaxe]

Tom, do you feel friction is lost due to the rope grooves? All of mine are getting a pretty good groove.

Not Tom but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.... grooves should add friction, not decrease it. The more surface area that comes into contact with the rope the more friction you have. Grooves add surface area....

[moab mark]

That's what I thought too. But my wife and kids thought theirs had more friction when flipped over. So then I thought without the grooves on a pirana there would be more bend in the rope when not following the nice groove?

Mark

[Cirrus2000]

That's what I thought too. But my wife and kids thought there was more when flipped over. So then I thought without the grooves on a pirana there was more bend in the rope when not following the nice groove?

Mark

I'm not Tom, nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night, but it seems to me that the friction does come from the bends, more that the surface area of contact. A rope running across polished metal does not create friction, if you ask me. Not that anyone is...

[ratagonia]

That's what I thought too. But my wife and kids thought there was more when flipped over. So then I thought without the grooves on a pirana there was more bend in the rope when not following the nice groove?

Mark

I'm not Tom, nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night, but it seems to me that the friction does come from the bends, more that the surface area of contact. A rope running across polished metal does not create friction, if you ask me. Not that anyone is...

Give that man a gift certificate for a Holiday Inn Express!!! Yes, Piranas get FASTER as they get worn. Less deflection of the rope = less friction.

And of Note: 1/3 to 1/2 is MY estimate of when the Pirana is worn out, but you should make your own evaluation and use your OWN judgment. YMMV, PDCC.

T

[sarahlizzy]

Just got in from our last canyon of the vacation - Pine Creek. Wow! That was completely awesome, but it definitely felt like a step up from the other class 3 canyons we've done in the last week. With the first anchor, which was kinda exposed, and the awkward pull setting the tone, we knew we were in for something special. Glad I quickdrawed myself to the anchor at the Great Cathedral rap, because I did slip, and I'm sure the canyon quickdraw was the only thing that stopped me going over the edge there.

It seemed very full of water, more full than I've seen in videos, and perhaps a little cooler than Keyhole was two days ago, although I did this one in a shortie wetsuit which made for one or two shivers in places. Much nicer to pack out though, and that exit hike was a killer! I always thought the hike out of the Subway was a pain in the butt, but that kilometre from the end of the technical section to the second switchback was something else.

Loved that last rap. I'd been very nervous about it, and because I was the first one down, with no bottom belay, and had never done a free hanging rap of anything like that length before, I rigged a Z-rig from the start to get all the friction I could. I think it was too much friction in the end, because the ride down was fitful, not to mention hard work

In the end though, while Mystery Springs scared me quite a bit, I wasn't remotely scared on the last rap in Pine Creek. I took in as much slack as I could, sat on the edge, and shuffled off into space. I'm sure Zoe, who'd rigged the anchor, was very relieved when she finally heard me call "off rope!" from the bottom.

Anyway, will definitely be doing Pine Creek again, even with that exit hike.

[cookiecutter]

Anyway, will definitely be doing Pine Creek again, even with that exit hike.

aww yes my noobie group is doing it again too. Such a fun canyon!

I don't mean to steal your thread, but would you recommend the 8.3 mm fire rope? I'll throw this out for Tom too if he checks back, but I ordered the 9mm and my order didn't go through so I'll get that fixed, just wondering if I should change to the 8.3 fire while I have the chance

[sarahlizzy]

I don't mean to steal your thread, but would you recommend the 8.3 mm fire rope? I'll throw this out for Tom too if he checks back, but I ordered the 9mm and my order didn't go through so I'll get that fixed, just wondering if I should change to the 8.3 fire while I have the chance

I really liked the 8.3. We used 9mm rope on that last rap, and if anything the amount of friction I had was far too high. I found the 8.3 to be far less bouncy than the Mammut 9mm we'd brought with us as well, which resulted in a smoother descent. I'll definitely be using it in future.

[Ryebrye]

Go with the 8.3.

The 8.3 that Tom sells acts a bit like a normal 9.

At least that's what I overheard him say to someone.

one day, accessory cord will be strong enough for us to use that to rap with regularly - and on that day I will be a very happy person.

[moab mark]

I don't mean to steal your thread, but would you recommend the 8.3 mm fire rope? I'll throw this out for Tom too if he checks back, but I ordered the 9mm and my order didn't go through so I'll get that fixed, just wondering if I should change to the 8.3 fire while I have the chance

I really liked the 8.3. We used 9mm rope on that last rap, and if anything the amount of friction I had was far too high. I found the 8.3 to be far less bouncy than the Mammut 9mm we'd brought with us as well, which resulted in a smoother descent. I'll definitely be using it in future.

I have both the 9 and 8.3. Nobody in our group could tell any difference in the diameter. So which ever one I think would work fine.