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Thread: Zion Permit System
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06-29-2009, 05:07 PM #1
Nice reports! Rangers checking permits..... Thank you rangers for "assisting" in my outdoor/wilderness experience with a police contact. It really makes me feel at home in the "back country" to be asked to fish out my permit. Again I ask, why the contact if a ranger only sees six people? What are they doing wrong that would warrant getting stopped and asked for a permit? It is legal to do canyons just like it is legal to fish. What gives rangers the right to assume "illegal" and ask for a permit. I keep expecting them to say with a german or russian accent, "May I see your papers." They can't do that while I am driving unless I commit a crime or I look like I am13. Must do some research on this one day. My current response is to put my permit in the top part of my pack and get it good and wet as soon as possible and maybe even dump a little Gatoraid on it so when asked I can hand them a wet wad of paper with pretty red gatoraid on it. Ooooo, am I mischevioius or what!
Life is Good
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06-29-2009 05:07 PM # ADS
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06-29-2009, 06:18 PM #2Originally Posted by Scott Card
I'll be heading into Heaps tomorrow morning because of the permit system. I really wonder how the folks that are 1 day overdue now will feel about the permit system if they are injured or stuck? I truly hope that they just walk out under their own power, but if they don't they might be pretty happy to know that there is a system in place that might be the red flag to bring help if needed!
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06-29-2009, 06:44 PM #3Originally Posted by Bo_Beck
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06-29-2009, 06:59 PM #4Originally Posted by Bo_Beck
I'll take bets on that.... I bet they are NOT happy with the permit system that probably caused them a late start, didn't allow them to pick their ideal day and inconvenienced them in a dozen other ways..... I bet the permit system is responsible for more rescues than it helps with....
Put all the honey you want on that biscuit.... I'm still not biting.....
And FYI.... the permit system is not a rescue system.... a check in person should be your responsibility and not that of the park...
Good luck with the SAR, I hope all goes well.....
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06-29-2009, 07:10 PM #5Originally Posted by Iceaxe
Thanks....I'll hope the SAR doesn't happen, but if it does I appreciate your well wishes!
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06-29-2009, 07:14 PM #6Originally Posted by Bo_Beck
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06-29-2009, 08:17 PM #7
"being served"
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06-29-2009, 08:27 PM #8
Slightly off topic
Someone (who I wont name to avoid dragging into this discussion) brought up an interesting scenario.
Do you need to have a permit to stand next to a car? Do you need to have a permit to hike with a backpack wearing a wetsuit? last I checked - no, you don't.
I have problems with the permit system in general - using the express system makes it a lot easier - but it could be enhanced if walk-ons were made available after a certain time 2 days in advance to express people.
The problem I have is with them being checked for the permit whenever they feel like it. Seriously? Just because I have a backpack on and I'm at my car I'm a suspected criminal?
The rangerettes at the top of the tunnel no longer check for permits for pine creek because they aren't law enforcement rangers - which has improved things a bit...
<rant>
So when a ranger asks you for your permit when you are at your car, what if you just say "No thank you. Right now I'm just standing here and that doesn't require a permit. If you see me doing something that does require a permit, I'll be more than happy to assist you in your legal responsibilities and show you such a permit."
The other question is... When you are being questioned by a ranger to determine if you need a citation - what happened to your right to remain silent?
</rant>
And bo - I have the upmost respect for the SAR teams and the quality of the teams in Zion. I don't think anyone would dispute that.-----
"It's a miracle curiosity survives formal education" - Albert Einstein
For a good time, check out my blog. or update the CanyonWiki
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06-29-2009, 08:30 PM #9Originally Posted by ratagonia
I was in a Target the other day buying a thing of tooth paste. There were 4 people in line in front of me - so they opened another register and I was able to quickly buy my $1.25 item.
Just saying...-----
"It's a miracle curiosity survives formal education" - Albert Einstein
For a good time, check out my blog. or update the CanyonWiki
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06-29-2009, 08:54 PM #10
IMO... I think an atm system could be helpful in this case. come up to a touch screen computer where you'll be able to see if there is a spot open on a canyon or not. if there is you put your credit card in and buy the permit and it prints it off.
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06-29-2009, 09:02 PM #11Originally Posted by theking648-----
"It's a miracle curiosity survives formal education" - Albert Einstein
For a good time, check out my blog. or update the CanyonWiki
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06-29-2009, 09:15 PM #12
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06-29-2009, 09:31 PM #13
There is always hope.... Teton NP had a crappy climbing permit system similar to the crappy canyoneering permit system in Zion. Teton eventually discovered they were causing more problems than they were solving and scrapped the climbing permits (you still need a permit in Teton to camp overnight).
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06-29-2009, 09:44 PM #14Originally Posted by ratagonia
No...I never said the permit system is perfect, nor will it ever be. Maybe you can enlighten me as to what the perfect system is? Can't you get a permit for a canyon as a walk in the day before? I think some permits are available online? You couldn't get one of the online permits? Come the day before then and get it. Oh I see! You can't get there the day before, so you must wait until the window opens that morning. So open the window at midnight? Well...I went to the window Sunday morning at 7AM and waited until it opened to get my Pincreek Permit. There were 5 people in front of me. the guys in the front of the line had been there since 4AM to pick up permits. They got them . If the window had opened at midnight...I'm sure they would have been there. How would you have felt If you had shown up at 1AM and there were 6 folks ahead of you. You wanted a simple walk-in for Mystery. The group in front of you pulled them all when the window opened at Midnight. Your backup was Imlay..the next group pulled those permits....hmmmm? what next? I really don't have a clue? Enlighten me please?
I went 5 years ago and climbed the NE Buttress on Whitney. I got a permit 4 months in advance. It took some planning and re-arranging of my schedule, but it was an awesome experience. I could have imagined 9 fixed ropes on the climb to accomodate the unlimited quota of climbers, but it was much more enjoyable to fix my own.
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06-30-2009, 04:00 PM #15Originally Posted by Bo_Beck
Originally Posted by Bo_BeckLife is Good
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06-30-2009, 04:30 PM #16Originally Posted by Bo_Beck
Now Bo, I respect you immensely. I admire your SAR experiences. I want to buy stuff from your store. I have thanked you for what you do a couple of times before and I thank you again now. THANKS BO. I mean that sincerely. But you have to understand that you are different from me, Joe Mapleton, when it comes to the Park service. The inference and the assumptions of the rangers when they come in contact with you and me is different. Sorry to rant and derail the thread (split it??) but you kinda called me out and you also defended the system. I think differently about the system. Friends?Life is Good
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06-30-2009, 05:17 PM #17
[b]The Zion Permit System is your typical bureaucratic train wreak
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06-30-2009, 05:45 PM #18
[quote=Iceaxe]has created a large group of rogue canyoneers who don
-----
"It's a miracle curiosity survives formal education" - Albert Einstein
For a good time, check out my blog. or update the CanyonWiki
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06-30-2009, 08:07 PM #19
My group had a recent unpleasant run in with the park rangers about a month ago just after we had completed The Subway. We did the hike from the top down leaving one car at the bottom and taking two cars up to the top. There were 6 of us in our group.
The first 4 of us had just finished the hike out and reached our car in the parking lot. We were in the process of taking off our backpacks and shoes when a ranger pulled in got out of his truck and came right to us. He asked to see our permit and I very politely pulled it out and gave it to him. He then went on his way and it was no big deal at this point. After the ranger got done checking all the cars in the lot and was getting back in his SUV the other two straglers of our group came strolling down the trail to the parking lot. The ranger jumped out of his car and headed toward them. At this point I yelled, "Its cool they are with us" but the ranger asked to see our permit again...kind of a pain in the A#@ but no big deal, so I showed him the permit again.
By this time the 4 of us that were waiting at the top were sitting on our cooler in the shade drinking a celebritory beer as we waited for our other two hikers to arrive. After the ranger checked our permit for the second time he noticed us drinking beers and now said that he was going to need to see all of our ID's. WHO THE HELL CARRIES THEIR ID THROUGH THE SUBWAY or any other canyon for that matter?? I had my ID because my car was at the bottom but no one else had their ID's. I thought he would check my ID and see that I was 26 and give the rest in our group the benefit of the doubt on being over 21....everyone who was drinking a beer was 25 or older. Nope, the ranger pulled out a pen and paper and took down everyones information and told us to wait there until he had ran all of our info. This took him about 10 or 15 minutes to do, which sucked because by this point we were all done with our beers and ready to hit the road back to our cars at the top. He finally came back and said we were all good, but he then hounded us about not driving if we had been drinking. Two guys in our group don't drink so we told him they would be driving to get our car at the top. Problem is we had two cars at the top so one of us that had had ONE DAMN BEER was going to have to drive a car down....not a big deal it was one utah strength beer.
That ranger finally left us alone, but by the time we had loaded up the gear in the car and the 3 people headed up to get the cars were getting ready to pull out another ranger pulled in and made us show him our permit once again!!! After this harassment they were finally able to pull out and go get the cars at the top.
After sitting at the bottom for about 15 or 20 mins two of our cars finally pulled into the parking lot. We asked where the third car was and they said the ranger that had first talked to us, asked to see our permit twice, and then harassed us about the beer had passed them on their way down and flipped around and pulled over the guy that had had the one beer. 20 minutes later the third car finally pulled into the parking lot. He said the ranger had made him do a complete field sobriety test, and then breathalized him. He passed everything with flying colors.
This was a shitty way to end a great day of hiking the subway. The rangers treated us like criminals from the moment they encountered us, and we had done nothing wrong. We had drove down and gotten the permit just before the permit desk closed the night before our trip(very inconvienent), we carried it with us throught the canyon, and showed it to them 3 damn times.
Not fun, but we didn't let it ruin our day....still had a great time in the subway. Sorry for the rant.
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06-30-2009, 08:15 PM #20
Same parking lot where I received the most grief I speak of. Similar treatment sans the beer issue. Lovely. Other bad encounters were at the end of the Narrows.
Life is Good
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