Rappel Device Location

[cilantro13]

Technical question:

What are the pros and cons of connecting your rappel device to a carabiner attached directly to your harness
<versus>
attaching the rappel device to a carabiner that is connected to a sling girth hitched to your harness. In other words, in the latter case, the rappel device is extended out from the harness with the sling.

I have seen videos of a California outfit teaching using the extended method. I had written the technique off until I read the book Self Rescue (see the recommendation in this thread: http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17682). In the book, it shows many examples using a sling to extend the rappel device out method. For example, the section on passing knots shows diagrams where a rappel is started in a "no sling" configuration. The rappel is completed to a knot connecting two ropes. Upon reconnection to the ropes below the knot, the belay device extended with a sling.

Can anybody articulate the pros and cons of using an rappel device extended by a sling? If not considered normal operating procedure, when would it be appropriate to extend the rappel device via sling?

[canyonguru]

Well i know the biggest problem with hanging it out there with a sling will cause your device to get scraped across any tight overhang or log jam. IMO i want my device as close to my body as posible. that way if i run a prusik I place it above my device this way nothing can get pulled up into my device with out me knowing. It is just the way that i learned and it works for me very well. I use a parana most of the time becuase of the quick friction options.

[denaliguide]

the only time i have my rappel device more than one locking biner away from my harness is in the winter when i have too many layers of clothing to see exactly what i am doing. then i just add one more locking biner to it and the distance seems right to me.

[ratagonia]

Technical question:

What are the pros and cons of connecting your rappel device to a carabiner attached directly to your harness
<versus>
attaching the rappel device to a carabiner that is connected to a sling girth hitched to your harness. In other words, in the latter case, the rappel device is extended out from the harness with the sling.

I have seen videos of a California outfit teaching using the extended method. I had written the technique off until I read the book Self Rescue (see the recommendation in this thread: http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17682). In the book, it shows many examples using a sling to extend the rappel device out method. For example, the section on passing knots shows diagrams where a rappel is started in a "no sling" configuration. The rappel is completed to a knot connecting two ropes. Upon reconnection to the ropes below the knot, the belay device extended with a sling.

Can anybody articulate the pros and cons of using an rappel device extended by a sling? If not considered normal operating procedure, when would it be appropriate to extend the rappel device via sling?

This is called "Extending the Rappel", is taught as a standard technique by ATS, and is not generally used by other people except in special circumstances.

Disadvantages:
1. Requires more equipment. Is sloppy, loose, disheveled, inelegant.
2. Not so good for awkward rappel starts that are common in canyons, especially CP canyons outside Zion. The extended rap device tends to get stuck above you.
3. The rig hanging down after the rappel is bad for walking and climbing, and the rappel device will burn your thighs. Requires management of the device after each rappel and before setting up (=slow slow slow).
4. If rigged quite high, the device can be out of easy reach, and then a curlyque or other problem can occur which becomes more difficult to deal with.
5. The rappel extension is usually made using webbing. The rope must NOT rub against the webbing as you rappel - it could burn through.
6. The higher location may be more effective at picking up loose items such as hair, beards, bushy eyebrows, t-shirts, substantial buxoms, etc.

Advantages:
1. Having the device higher allows using both hands on the rope in an equal manner.
2. In the few cases where using an Autobloc is appropriate, it gives more space at the bottom for the Autobloc to operate.
3. The higher location may be more effective at avoiding picking up loose items such as hair, beards, bushy eyebrows, t-shirts, substantial buxoms, etc.
4. The higher location works well for small kids, whose hands are not very strong in the 'down' position. With kids, I like getting the device up high enough that they will not get their little tiny fingers pinched in the device.
5. On long rappels, having the 'hot biner' at face level allows grasping the rig with the free hand to help hold the upper body in. On long free rappels, I usually go ahead and make a chest harness and clip it into the rigging which is in the right place with the rappel device extended.

When I use an extended device:
1. With small kids (under about 10 yrs old).
2. For myself on long rappels (extended with a folded, over the shoulder sling. Two crossed slings make a chest harness and clip in right there).
3. Certain rescue scenarios (tandem rappel).

That said, my normal rappel set up is a Pirana on an Attache clipped to a 10mm Aluminum Rapide, threaded on my belay loop. This provides a small amount of extension (over what most people use), which I find quite agreeable.

There is a fair amount of 'personal preference' involved, but outside Zion and the San Gabriels, one would find the extension a pain in the patootie on the numerous awkward rappel starts.

Tom

[cilantro13]

Thanks to everybody, and to Tom especially for the detailed explanation.

[canyonguru]

Substantial Buxoms


Tom you kill me

[Iceaxe]

I have to extend my rappel device about 3-feet so that my daddy parts don't get caught.......

[karoberts]

This is the product that ATS uses to extend the rappel device
http://www.sterlingrope.com/product/...Chain_Reactors

You girth hitch the large loop of the longer green part through both harness loops. Then your biner with atc/pirana goes through the small loop at the end of the larger green part. Usually a williams or other large biner goes on the other green part at the end which can be used to clip to an exposed anchor (for safety) or to a tagline in swiftwater scenarios.

To walk around with it, you clip the device biner into a harness gear loop, and then the biner on the end to a gear loop on your other side. To rappel, you unclip your device biner, hook into the rope, tie your autobloc, and go.

A few reasons I like this method (some similar to Tom's points)
1. The angle of the rope needed to provide friction is less, thus I can actually use my brake hand to steady myself on slippery rappels (san gabriels muck) without losing friction.
2. The autobloc (which I use most of the time in non-swiftwater) goes neatly below the rappel device and can be tended by my left hand with my right further down the brake line.
3. Having a chain always there is handy for hooking into anchors where a slip would be a problem.
4. For certain rescue/self rescue scenarios having that chain there can simplify things.

Problems I've found with it
1. I've scraped my pirana over a few edges. It's only a problem when you go over an edge that is undercut.
2. On free-hanging rappels, the change in position of the device can tend to try and flip you over (especially if wearing a heavy pack)
3. After you finish your rappel, the device is hanging lower and can hit you in the thighs while walking.
4. I sometimes worry about that green webbing part breaking on me. It's basically a doubled/reinforced sling, so I don't worry too much, but it's another item that can fail.

So overall, it's just another tool in the bag.

[ratagonia]

This is the product that ATS uses to extend the rappel device
http://www.sterlingrope.com/product/...Chain_Reactors

You girth hitch the large loop of the longer green part through both harness loops. Then your biner with atc/pirana goes through the small loop at the end of the larger green part. Usually a williams or other large biner goes on the other green part at the end which can be used to clip to an exposed anchor (for safety) or to a tagline in swiftwater scenarios.

To walk around with it, you clip the device biner into a harness gear loop, and then the biner on the end to a gear loop on your other side. To rappel, you unclip your device biner, hook into the rope, tie your autobloc, and go.

A few reasons I like this method (some similar to Tom's points)
1. The angle of the rope needed to provide friction is less, thus I can actually use my brake hand to steady myself on slippery rappels (san gabriels muck) without losing friction.
2. The autobloc (which I use most of the time in non-swiftwater) goes neatly below the rappel device and can be tended by my left hand with my right further down the brake line.
3. Having a chain always there is handy for hooking into anchors where a slip would be a problem.
4. For certain rescue/self rescue scenarios having that chain there can simplify things.

Problems I've found with it
1. I've scraped my pirana over a few edges. It's only a problem when you go over an edge that is undercut.
2. On free-hanging rappels, the change in position of the device can tend to try and flip you over (especially if wearing a heavy pack)
3. After you finish your rappel, the device is hanging lower and can hit you in the thighs while walking.
4. I sometimes worry about that green webbing part breaking on me. It's basically a doubled/reinforced sling, so I don't worry too much, but it's another item that can fail.

So overall, it's just another tool in the bag.

I realize that with training, one can be convinced this is a simple and elegant solution but to me it seems awkward and sloppy.

1. Daisy chain? Daisy chains (or Chain Reactors) are great for climbing, where you are Actually Hanging from anchors and need to micro adjust the length. If you are doing this canyoneering, you are doing different canyons the me! Adjustability in your clip-in sling is not useful and gets in the way when canyoneering. Your clip-in sling should be a reasonable length and tight to the body (when stowed) so it does not get in the way, and so it can be quickly used and stowed. Longish chains require multiple clips to deploy and stow - which is slow slow slow - and having extra things hanging on you is somewhat dangerous. (summary: no benefit, many downsides).

2. Having your clip-in sling and your rappel device clip-in linked is not of benefit, and gets in the way, in the real world. Yes, if the anchors are "text-book", then the whole thing works, but when the safety anchor is over here and the rappel anchor over there (or maybe, over the edge), then it is a distinct liability. Another of your comments brings out another problem - awkward rappel start, heavy pack - why are you wearing the pack? With a separated clip-in sling, the pack can be easily clipped and lowered, without adding an odd force to the rappel device clip in, which is awkward enough already.

I have seen people use this system, and it seems awkward and forced (and slow, and adds some dangers). Bzzzzzzt!

But, your mileage may vary. I place an extra emphasis on simplicity, elegance and speed (in addition to the background level 0 of safety). Perhaps you like things that are complex, inelegant and slow.

Tom

[karoberts]

Technical question:

What are the pros and cons of connecting your rappel device to a carabiner attached directly to your harness
<versus>
attaching the rappel device to a carabiner that is connected to a sling girth hitched to your harness. In other words, in the latter case, the rappel device is extended out from the harness with the sling.

Can anybody articulate the pros and cons of using an rappel device extended by a sling? If not considered normal operating procedure, when would it be appropriate to extend the rappel device via sling?

As per the original poster, I was simply answering his questions as to some of the pros and cons from someone who has used that method. I wasn't advocating any particular method. What works well for me may not work for others and vice-versa.

[rcwild]

There have also been several incidents here and overseas involving people using daisy chains as their safety lanyards. Victim goes under water, daisy chain snags on stick or rock and holds them under. Resulted in drownings or near-drownings. One such incident occurred during an ACA rendezvous in Arizona a few years ago. She managed to free herself once she realized what the problem was, but her partners said she was under for well over a minute and a half.

Daisy chain, Metolius PAS, Sterling Chain Reactor -- all create the same risk. All of the benefits espoused by ATS regarding this method can be attained by using a Petzl Spelegyca or a combination of other items, i.e. Imlay Clipster as long leg (lanyard) and Edelrid Fuse as short leg (rappel device extension). And the benefits are attained without the serious drawbacks.

[rcwild]

This is the product that ATS uses to extend the rappel device
http://www.sterlingrope.com/product/...Chain_Reactors

From Sterling's description:

The Chain Reactor absorbs enough energy to withstand three factor 2 drops.

Interesting thing about this ... The excessive length of the Chain Reactor (or Metolius PAS or daisy chain) contributes significantly to people setting themselves up for said factor 2 falls. Give someone a long leash and they are more likely to climb above the anchor.

[Felicia]

Substantial Buxoms

...not funny - true.

[max32]

WHat about using a short 8" dogbone with 2 locking biners on each side to extend an ATC device for rappelling?

[ilipichicuma]

I've been extending my belay device out on a sling for a few months now, and I'm a little split as to whether I like it or not. I think it does make rappelling a little more comfortable, but Tom was right about it being clumsy, and it does make awkward starts harder. A lot of the time I just pull my device in for that. I think I'm going to stop once I get my hands on a rapide to make my ATS stay straight.

[ratagonia]

I've been extending my belay device out on a sling for a few months now, and I'm a little split as to whether I like it or not. I think it does make rappelling a little more comfortable, but Tom was right about it being clumsy, and it does make awkward starts harder. A lot of the time I just pull my device in for that. I think I'm going to stop once I get my hands on a rapide to make my ATS stay straight.

http://canyoneeringusa.com/shop/prod...cat=260&page=1

T

[ilipichicuma]

http://canyoneeringusa.com/shop/prod...cat=260&page=1

T

Thanks, but I already bought one at Lowe's a couple months ago. I like it a lot, actually.

[canyoncaver]

Technical question:

What are the pros and cons of .............. attaching the rappel device to a carabiner that is connected to a sling girth hitched to your harness?

Pro: Extending the rappel device can be nice if you ever have to rappel down an extremely tight crack. If you can get the device up near head level, and keep your hair out of it, it makes squeezing down through a crack while on rope so much nicer. This is the only time I use this method.

Con: All the stuff that Tom said.

[CLE]

Pro: Extending the rappel device can be nice if you ever have to rappel down an extremely tight crack. If you can get the device up near head level, and keep your hair out of it, it makes squeezing down through a crack while on rope so much nicer. This is the only time I use this method.

Con: All the stuff that Tom said.

I agree. I have used this method to rappel in tight, jagged caves. It gets the rappel device up where I can see what's going on, reduces the abuse the device takes from the wall, and gives me a little more clearance where I need it.

[burley]

Thanks, but I already bought one at Lowe's a couple months ago. I like it a lot, actually.

Not to be hating, but can anyone clarify? I was under the impression that hardware from Lowe's wasn't safe, and that rapides should be CE or UIAA rated?