Zion Rappel Accident

[ratagonia]

Since it seems that a great deal of this accident was due to a lack of friction I have some newbie questions relating to friction on a rappel device. I am somewhat new to canyoneering and most of my rappelling experience is in climbing i.e. thicker ropes and double strand rappelling.
I recently purchased a Petzel Piranha to rappel with and I really enjoy the ability to adjust friction on it but I haven't done a long rappel on it. I was wondering what friction mode it needs to be put into to be comparable to say the friction from an ATC guide (which I previously used)? If I were to do the 300' rappel that this thread is discussing would I need to put as much friction on the the pirahna as possible AND use a leg carabiner or would the piranha by itself be able to provide enough friction?
I apologize because I do realize this question is likely a bit ambiguous but I would rather ask here then get a video posted of me here falling down a 300' rappel.
As a frame of reference for the friction I would need I weigh about 155 lb.

The other big factor is what rope you are on. Not only brand and size, but also condition (new, old, fuzzy, slick) or wet/dry.

You got a cliff near where you live? While we could give you a formula for what setting to use at your weight and on X rope, it is better to understand the variety of settings and how each feels on a variety of ropes. WITH A BOTTOM BELAY from a friend.

Then, on a long rappel, the weight of the rope makes a big difference across the length of the rappel. At the top, the weight of the rope will slow you down, a LOT, and you will need to be set up 'light'. About halfway down, you will want to make an adjustment. Since there are not ledges on this particular rappel, you cannot easily use the Pirana adjustments to add more friction. I use the opposite-leg-loop biner method, but other method work too.

Which is a bit beyond the capabilities here...

Tom

[moab mark]

Tom is right going out and playing with your piranha is the best way. As far as your question. We just did Englestead on a brand new 300' imlay 9mm. I was the 6th one down. I weigh 190 lbs. Started at the top of the rappel with the rope under both hooks. With a pair of gloves on never had to change anything and went all the way to the bottom with the same setting.
If I would of needed to add a little friction. This may not be a proper technique due to being able to get my glove stuck in the device etc. But I take my left hand squeeze the rope running through the piranha then take the rope up over the small hook and then continue on. Have done it a several times seems to work pretty well.

My Son weighs around 150 lbs. He also went down under both hooks and had no problems.

These are just examples. You need to go out and practice for yourself.

My personal opinion on a rappel of this size. If the first guy downdoes not have his device dialed in. You better belay him down from the top. Once he is on the ground a monkey can go down.

I participate in an extreme adventure race in Moab every spring. They have you do a 300' rappel by Gemini Bridges. The organization has no clue what your rappeling experience is. I was talking to the head guy at the top last year about his concerns with the length. He stated if we watch you rig your device and have a fireman belay were not to concerned. They do make you wear gloves. Over a hundred go down every year. I personally know of about 15 people who that was the first rappel they ever did. They scream a little but they get to the bottom.

[Iceaxe]

Kinda bothers me when scenarios like this are tweaked with variables like, "What if you don't know how to ascend back out?" or "What if you don't know basic first aid?" Just pondering the scenario should encourage everyone to acquire these skills.

I don't see where anyone has tweaked the scenario.... the question was "what would YOU do" ......... there was no right or wrong answer....

So your his buddy, you just watched him going flying down. Let's say he doesn't answer you. Do you go for help immediately or do you rappel into the hole?

I just figure I'll be most useful in getting help....

Now if I had advanced medical skills I might make a different choice....

If I knew I was 40 pounds over weight and running a 1/2 mile would kill me I'd probably go down in the hole....

The benefit of a scenario like this is you can identify areas where improving your skills might be useful, or maybe it will help you diet so you can actually run for help.... yes, I would love to have the medical skills of a surgeon.... I would also like to fly a helicopter and build anther race car for baja.... but I have limited time, canyoneering is just one of several sports I participate in. I'm guessing very few of us on here have lives that revolve around canyoneering so we try to budget our time acquiring skills to the best of our abilities and scenarios help us....

Anyhoo.... just a few thoughts from an occasional canyoneer....

[rcwild]

Now if I had advanced medical skills I might make a different choice....

You can save a life with the skills you learn in an 8 hour Red Cross First Aid course.

[Iceaxe]

You can save a life with the skills you learn in an 8 hour Red Cross First Aid course.

Actually been there.... done that.... and married the paramedic....



The rest of you guys probably just got the t-shirt.

[Scott Card]

You can save a life with the skills you learn in an 8 hour Red Cross First Aid course.

Actually been there.... done that.... and married the paramedic....



The rest of you guys probably just got the t-shirt.

So that is how you passed the class.... someone check his test scores

[Iceaxe]

So that is how you passed the class.... someone check his test scores

Now you know why I'm only allowed to dispense band-aids.... the kids always go to mom for important medical. I never get to play medic.... If we pass a wicked car wreak or something she makes me stop.... and I always get the important job like holding the flashlight....

[zoeimogen]

Since there are not ledges on this particular rappel, you cannot easily use the Pirana adjustments to add more friction. I use the opposite-leg-loop biner method, but other method work too.

Umm, I may be about to make myself look stupid, but why can't you add friction with the Pirana? Admittedly you're more limited double roping than single lining but you can just wrap the rope around on the right hand side, assuming you're right handed. (Twice around and you're basically stopped and could take your hands away without a stopper knot, not that it's a good idea, at least on the 9mm rope I've used with it - but you can't wrap round twice when double-lining)

[moab mark]

Since there are not ledges on this particular rappel, you cannot easily use the Pirana adjustments to add more friction. I use the opposite-leg-loop biner method, but other method work too.

Umm, I may be about to make myself look stupid, but why can't you add friction with the Pirana? Admittedly you're more limited double roping than single lining but you can just wrap the rope around on the right hand side, assuming you're right handed. (Twice around and you're basically stopped and could take your hands away without a stopper knot, not that it's a good idea, at least on the 9mm rope I've used with it - but you can't wrap round twice when double-lining)

Not to speak for Tom, but I think the point he is making is. On a rappel of 300 ft. where you are either free hanging or slightly touching the wall. As you get to the bottom it is pretty hard to bring yourself to a stop to add friction over one of the hooks. So you either have to rig it heavy at the top and then deal with the lack of friction at the bottom or increase your friction as you go down. If you can make it happen then yes it will work. That is one of the concepts behind all the hooks on a piranha.
When wanting to tie off on your piranha I do it a little different then you described. I wrap it once around the hooks bottom to top and then put the slack end thru the carabiner and hook it on the hook on the other side. Its bomber.
You also brought up being right handed. If you are left handed just flip the piranha around on your carabiner this gives the lefty the same
choices.

Hope that all made sense.

Mark

[zoeimogen]

Not to speak for Tom, but I think the point he is making is. On a rappel of 300 ft. where you are either free hanging or slightly touching the wall. As you get to the bottom it is pretty hard to bring yourself to a stop to add friction over one of the hooks. So you either have to rig it heavy at the top and then deal with the lack of friction at the bottom or increase your friction as you go down. If you can make it happen then yes it will work.

OK, so I guess the point is that with a Z-rig or similar, if you're using wiregates then you can basically just shove the rope through the gate and it'll slow you even if the rope is still moving.

When wanting to tie off on your piranha I do it a little different then you described. I wrap it once around the hooks bottom to top and then put the slack end thru the carabiner and hook it on the hook on the other side. Its bomber.

Oh, I tie off as it shows in the manual, with a knot - I woudln't actually take my hands off just having wrapped around twice. It's enough friction to keep you steady but could still slip off.

You also brought up being right handed. If you are left handed just flip the piranha around on your carabiner this gives the lefty the same choices.

Yes, wasn't sure how I should indicate the, uh, spikey side as opposed to the offside you're not braking with :-)

[ratagonia]

Since there are not ledges on this particular rappel, you cannot easily use the Pirana adjustments to add more friction. I use the opposite-leg-loop biner method, but other method work too.

Umm, I may be about to make myself look stupid, but why can't you add friction with the Pirana? Admittedly you're more limited double roping than single lining but you can just wrap the rope around on the right hand side, assuming you're right handed. (Twice around and you're basically stopped and could take your hands away without a stopper knot, not that it's a good idea, at least on the 9mm rope I've used with it - but you can't wrap round twice when double-lining)

I am not fond of the ways to adjust the Pirana friction in combat. Going for the upper hook, you pass briefly through a lower-friction position before getting there - not so good when things are on the edge of control. The positions you can get to without going through the soft spot are TOO much friction.

Tom