Zion Rappel Accident

[nat]

This accident has me stumped. Could the camera have played a role in this? Trying to look cool and fast from the top? I gotta tell you I hope I would have had the good sense that IF I were to have lost control and by chance a knot has stuck me, I hope I would have tied off, screamed for help like a girl or something other than lose it again. Also, with the weight of the rope, I have never been able to go fast or anywhere near fast at the start of that rap. It is the bottom 100 feet that needs my attention on that rap and the Heaps final rap.

My wife had a similar response on seeing the video: "What the ... is he doing, racing down at the beginning like that; posing for the camera?"

[Brian in SLC]

Was on this morning's Today Show:

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/

Q and A was pretty interesting. One of the mistakes: wrong belay device for the rope diameter as it didn't have enough "tension".

No helmet.

Wore gloves: fingerless (hence the burns).

Less miracle talk than on the KSL piece.

Pretty entertaining bit. Kinda funny too.

You first time "english dead" folks take care in there. This is what, now, at least three folks who've blown this rappel and lived to tell the tale? Not counting the cougar huntin' dog that lived fallling in too (RIP the cougar though).

Get your pack off your back! Rig some adequate friction from the get go and have some additiional friction options! Use a larger diameter rope! Know how to add friction on the fly! Go slowly and methodically, in control!

Crazy stuff.

-Brian in SLC

[Iceaxe]

Thanks Brian

Here is the direct link into the video and interview
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/261848...61108#31461108

[nonot]

For all those bashing oldno, he was wearing gloves, albeit fingerless ones.

Gloves are no substitute for knowing how to rig and adjust rappels for proper friction!

[Scott Card]

In my newbie brain, fingerless gloves are almost as useful as shorty wetsuits!

[moab mark]

So your his buddy, you just watched him going flying down. Let's say he doesn't answer you. Do you go for help immediately or do you rappel into the hole?

Mark

[Iceaxe]

So your his buddy, you just watched him going flying down. Let's say he doesn't answer you. Do you go for help immediately or do you rappel into the hole?

I've been thinking about this myself.....

If you go down you are probably 2 or 3 hours minimum from reaching any help and that's if you jug 260' back out. If it's me I only have very basic emergency medical skills and nothing much to work with in my first aid kit. And let's face it.... this is probably not going to be a band-aids and aspirin fix..... and you are going to need help no matter what....

If you take off immediately you can be at the Zion Ponderosa in 30 minutes and have a major rescue force including trained medical and a helicopter in route to the accident....

I'm heading to the Zion Ponderosa to alert trained rescue and medical as fast as I can.....

[Pubalz]

Hope he didnt have the keys with him

[rcwild]

You have to rappel down to him to assess his injuries. ABCD -- Airway, Breathing, Circulation, Disability. If he has a blocked airway, isn't breathing, has no pulse or is bleeding profusely, he will be dead before you return with help. Disability relates to level of consciousness and possible spinal injury.

Give him the first aid he needs to save his life, THEN decide whether to stay with him or go for help.

[robjenson]

link to today show interview:

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/261848...61108#31461108

There's a part where the host says "you can't go back up" and he responds "I can't climb 300'." Seems to me like he thought the only way to get back up was climbing up the actual rock...but doesn't he have the rope there..and if he is conscious and fine (except for his fingers), can't he ascend the rope using prusik knots...i haven't done too many canyons, but have practiced using prusiks to ascend 30 feet...just seems to me that this "expert" rappeller doesn't know about ascending ropes...but i could be wrong...300' would be daunting to ascend...

also, seems like he doesn't know how to adjust friction and how to use his rappel device....

[Sombeech]

jeez, I'm going to do something like this so I can get national recognition.


Either that or just go streaking at the next ReAL game

[Iceaxe]

So your his buddy, you just watched him going flying down. Let's say he doesn't answer you. Do you go for help immediately or do you rappel into the hole?

OK... I had the opportunity to put this question to a group of professional paramedics and a life flight crew this past weekend.... and after much discussion and "what if's" the group eventually came to the consensus that your first obligation in this situation would be to get help. The kicker in the conversation was "so you go down and give CPR, and after 20 minutes you have used yourself up and than you are screwed".

It was interesting listening to the pros hash out the options.....

[Don]

So your his buddy, you just watched him going flying down. Let's say he doesn't answer you. Do you go for help immediately or do you rappel into the hole?

OK... I had the opportunity to put this question to a group of professional paramedics and a life flight crew this past weekend.... and after much discussion and "what if's" the group eventually came to the consensus that your first obligation in this situation would be to get help. The kicker in the conversation was "so you go down and give CPR, and after 20 minutes you have used yourself up and than you are screwed".

It was interesting listening to the pros hash out the options.....

Pro advice or not; it would be a tough call leaving a buddy without assessing and providing first aid. Alone I would almost certainly go down and assess/aid. I wouldn't go down if it seemed likely I would repeat the accident or if it were clear my parter was already dead.
I think I would prefer having a third team member around which would free up one to run and one to stay...

[oldno7]

So your his buddy, you just watched him going flying down. Let's say he doesn't answer you. Do you go for help immediately or do you rappel into the hole?

OK... I had the opportunity to put this question to a group of professional paramedics and a life flight crew this past weekend.... and after much discussion and "what if's" the group eventually came to the consensus that your first obligation in this situation would be to get help. The kicker in the conversation was "so you go down and give CPR, and after 20 minutes you have used yourself up and than you are screwed".

It was interesting listening to the pros hash out the options.....

I think I would prefer having a third team member around which would free up one to run and one to stay...

I know we all don't abide by this idea, but it sure changes the procedure, and could save a life in the more remote canyons.
Maybe something to think about when organizing our trips.

[Iceaxe]

I think I would prefer having a third team member around which would free up one to run and one to stay...

I always figured a team of 3 or 4 to be ideal, but I don't think I fully appreciated the safety margin a third member adds until now.

[rcwild]

[quote="Iceaxe"]

OK... I had the opportunity to put this question to a group of professional paramedics and a life flight crew this past weekend.... and after much discussion and "what if's" the group eventually came to the consensus that your first obligation in this situation would be to get help. The kicker in the conversation was "so you go down and give CPR, and after 20 minutes you have used yourself up and than you are screwed".

It was interesting listening to the pros hash out the options ...

Bullsh---

It is possible to play the "what if" game until your buddy makes a miraculous recovery or until everybody, including all the rescuers and bystanders, dies. But, if you presented the scenario as Mark presented it, no competent professional would recommend leaving him without assessing his injuries first.

If you go down and perform CPR for 20 minutes and exhaust yourself, you have plenty of time to rest and recover because your buddy is dead and there is no rush getting help.

Bottom line remains the same ... If you go for help and it turns out your buddy needed basic life support, he will be dead when you return.

The only way you can tweak this scenario to justify going for help instead of going down to assess your buddy is if there are imminent dangers to you, i.e. you don't know how to rappel, there is no rope to rappel on, the rope has been compromised, rockfall, flash flood, etc. etc.

I won't even buy the argument that you can't go down because you don't know how to ascend back up. First things first. Save your buddy's life.

Other tangents to this thread should include -- Is it appropriate to go out with only two people? Especially if they are both beginners? Should there always be at least one person on a team who knows how to ascend? Better for everyone to know how? What kind of first aid kits are people carrying? What kind of first aid skills do people have, especially considering the remote terrain we venture into? Etc. Etc.

[rcwild]

People should start using this scenario for screening partners. If they say they would go for help ... look for a different partner.

[Iceaxe]

FWIW: I don't have a dog in this race..... my medical training consists of choosing between a Star Wars or Barbie band-aid.

I'll tell you right now.... if I'm your partner you want me going for help, I'm fast as the wind.... that.... and I think blood is icky......

[Scott Card]

Excellent points and tangents Rich. Running off for help without assessing the situation remindes me of my mother-in-law when one of her kids (now all grown) didn't come home on time. She would hop in the car and start driving. Not driving to a location just driving and looking for them. Made no sense to anyone but the panic and worry took over any rational thought process.

[mmac]

Bottom line remains the same ... If you go for help and it turns out your buddy needed basic life support, he will be dead when you return.

First things first. Save your buddy's life.

Other tangents to this thread should include -- Is it appropriate to go out with only two people? Especially if they are both beginners? Should there always be at least one person on a team who knows how to ascend? Better for everyone to know how? What kind of first aid kits are people carrying? What kind of first aid skills do people have, especially considering the remote terrain we venture into? Etc. Etc.

I agree. If your buddy(s) can assess themselves, get an idea of what's wrong and then go for help. If there's no response, you're responsible for their ABC's.

We always have at least 3 people when we go out. We've generally got two people who carry gear for, and know enough to ascend out of a tricky spot if necessary. I have an EMT certification as well as Wilderness First Responder training. Most of the people I travel with have basic First Aid/CPR. I carry a pretty substantial medkit in my car (if we can make it there, we're set until professional help can arrive), but strip it down a lot when we go into a canyon.

I generally carry:
a pocket knife
2 pairs of non-latex gloves
roll of duct tape
triangle bandage
ace bandage
individually wrapped alcohol and iodine wipes
8 benadryl extra strength
12 advil extra strength
4 aspirin
4 hydrocodone

The Imlay packs we use as well as clothing and the available natural resources have many pieces that can be removed (or cut off) to form splints, litters, bandages, etc... I think those things work pretty well for addressing most common minor-moderate injuries, and could be used to stabilize many patients until professional help can arrive.


Disclaimer!: Good Samaritan Laws do not protect a first responder using some of the equipment I've listed above. It is illegal to administer any Rx drugs to a person who was not issued an Rx by their doctor. Proper training and knowledge is required before attempting to administer any form of aid.