Scenario - Flipped Upside Down

[oldno7]

I would venture a guess that 90% of canyoneers are ill prepared for adversity in a canyon.

If you are talking Zion canyoneers I would totally agree.... if talking CP canyoneers as a whole I think your number is way high.... I've found those venturing to areas outside of Zion to be much better prepared...

I've always assumed this is the amusement park type attitude that surrounds Zion. Those who drive 50 miles down crappy dirt roads in the Roost, Escalante and Swell seem to have a much better grasp on reality....

Just my 2 cents.....

Nope, in my very un-official survey, I include all area's.
I think having a grasp on what your getting into, vs. knowing how to get out of the sticky wicket are 2 VERY different things.
This should probably be it's own thread, but----I'll throw out a quick one as I think a majority here rappel double strand.

Your rapping the last drop of a Roost canyon with a 100' exit rappel mostly free. You doubled your only rope for this rappel. Your the last guy on top, as you watch your buddy go down he slips just before going free and rolls upside down. The rope becomes twisted and with his weight on it he is stuck. He can't get himself upright.

THE CLOCK IS TICKING................

[Iceaxe]

Your rapping the last drop of a Roost canyon with a 100' exit rappel mostly free. You doubled your only rope for this rappel. Your the last guy on top, as you watch your buddy go down he slips just before going free and rolls upside down. He can't get himself upright.

THE CLOCK IS TICKING................

Nice setup, but I almost never hear of this type thing being a problem outside of Zion... Honestly... biggest error I usually hear about outside of Zion is navigational and not technical.... YMMV....

[Iceaxe]

Maybe let me put this anther way.....

90% of the canyoneers I run into in Zion scare the shit out of me..... and I think they might die.

Probably only 20% of the canyoneers I run into outside of Zion scare the shit out of me....

Your Mileage May Vary.... I'd like to see a few others attach percentages to see what others think....

[oldno7]

Your rapping the last drop of a Roost canyon with a 100' exit rappel mostly free. You doubled your only rope for this rappel. Your the last guy on top, as you watch your buddy go down he slips just before going free and rolls upside down. He can't get himself upright.

THE CLOCK IS TICKING................

Nice setup, but I almost never hear of this type thing being a problem outside of Zion... Honestly... biggest error I usually hear about outside of Zion is navigational and not technical.... YMMV....

I really wasn't throwing this out at you Shane, more at the group to maybe expand on where Tom may or may not have been heading with the discussion.
The more everyone knows, the better off we all are. imo

[oldno7]

Maybe let me put this anther way.....

90% of the canyoneers I run into in Zion scare the shit out of me..... and I think they might die.

Probably only 20% of the canyoneers I run into outside of Zion scare the shit out of me....

Your Mileage May Vary.... I'd like to see a few others attach percentages to see what others think....

I'll even help with the poll--- By throwing in an extra 100' rope to my above scenario. How many canyoneers out of 10 can solve this dilemma? If I'm coming off as snide I'll quit.(not my intention) Just trying to add to the reality check. I could post dozens more scenarios if you want to increase the polls credibility.

[Brian in SLC]

Your rapping the last drop of a Roost canyon with a 100' exit rappel mostly free. You doubled your only rope for this rappel. Your the last guy on top, as you watch your buddy go down he slips just before going free and rolls upside down. The rope becomes twisted and with his weight on it he is stuck. He can't get himself upright.

Had a pretty similar scenario to this happen in Crete. Bonus was, was over a huge 240 foot drop. Partner got their figure eight cattywhompus (sorry, had to get all technical) and it jammed the rope in as it oriented sideways. Scary as heck. I got to them pretty quick and was able to assist. Big air assist.

I'd be less than happy to do this type of thing over drop especially where a couple of perfectly good bolts had been removed, and, replaced with a rock buried in the sand, with a single piece of sling sticking out of the sand.

Perhaps "someone" is an asshat on a number of levels? Ha ha.

One rule I keep trying to remember when spraggin' and/or spraying on the 'net. Don't say something online you aren't willing to say to someone, or, their living relatives and/or friends, in person.

Name calling is all part of a loss of credibility....

-Brian in SLC

[Iceaxe]

I split this off into it's own thread because I think working through Scenario's can be a good thing....

Ready - set - go.....

[Iceaxe]

I missed this one when splitting the posts....

I'll play! I'm a noob but always interested in learning. Makes it tough that you only give us one rope I think. My first guess would be his pack is too friggin heavy. So I say drop the pack and see if he is able to self right?

Is he rappelling on single strand via a block or using both strands? If he was using a single I would encourage him to grab the free rope and use it for leverage.

Wrong?


Just for the record this is on a whole different level than jumping into a raging whirlpool after someone in your party already died. But I'm still curious of the answer.

[oldno7]

I missed this one when splitting the posts....

Just for the record this is on a whole different level than jumping into a raging whirlpool after someone in your party already died. But I'm still curious of the answer.

If you don't save this guy from hanging upside down, he's just as dead.

I can solve this at least 3 different ways with the things I carry on my harness or in my pack on EVERY trip.(maybe not keyhole)
But the excersize is not for me, it's to determine what % of canyoneers are willing to put there huge ego's aside and say. "If this happened to my buddy,wife,son,daughter'(insert what you want)...........THEY WILL BE DEAD!
Or----I have the solution and can solve it in a timely enough matter to save their lives.
The scenario was rappelling double strand.

What will the % be?

[trackrunner]

Your rapping the last drop of a Roost canyon with a 100' exit rappel mostly free. You doubled your only rope for this rappel. Your the last guy on top, as you watch your buddy go down he slips just before going free and rolls upside down. The rope becomes twisted and with his weight on it he is stuck. He can't get himself upright.

THE CLOCK IS TICKING................

How did it become twisted? Did it rap around him or twisted up so that it's kind of fireman belaying him?

Not fully understanding the scenario here are a couple things that may help. If there is a second rope on top and the anchor is bomer you can do a pick off or rig a MA to raise him and unweight the rope.
raise him and unweight the rope.

[oldno7]

Your rapping the last drop of a Roost canyon with a 100' exit rappel mostly free. You doubled your only rope for this rappel. Your the last guy on top, as you watch your buddy go down he slips just before going free and rolls upside down. The rope becomes twisted and with his weight on it he is stuck. He can't get himself upright.

THE CLOCK IS TICKING................

How did it become twisted? Did it rap around him or twisted up so that it's kind of fireman belaying him?

Not fully understanding the scenario here are a couple things that may help. If there is a second rope on top and the anchor is bomer you can do a pick off or rig a MA to raise him and unweight the rope.
raise him and unweight the rope.

How it became twisted? We'll say it wrapped around him. Although somewhat of a moot point.

Tell me in more detail how you would raise him on a double strand rope or pick him off. Your onto some great ideas. But you have to list details. Saying haul system on the internet vs. doing one under pressure, may vary slightly.

1) Brian said it and Shaun did too, no matter what you need a bomber anchor. Might have to create a second one.
2)
3)
4)
5)

[Jaxx]

I'll play.
I would get my prussics off my harness and hook them both to the anchor and then one to each strand of the rope with a french wrap or similar knot. I would then have them lower themselves while holding only one strand. Once the strand was weighted you could tie off the other end and use the exra end to rap. You would have to pull it out or have your victim pull it out of their device.
The reason for both prussics is to make sure you cover your bases incase there is a mix up in which rope they are going to weight.
This may not be the best but it is what came to mind first. If you are going to rip me a new one please use lube.

[oldno7]

I'll play.
I would get my prussics off my harness and hook them both to the anchor and then one to each strand of the rope with a french wrap or similar knot. I would then have them lower themselves while holding only one strand. Once the strand was weighted you could tie off the other end and use the exra end to rap. You would have to pull it out or have your victim pull it out of their device.
The reason for both prussics is to make sure you cover your bases incase there is a mix up in which rope they are going to weight.
This may not be the best but it is what came to mind first. If you are going to rip me a new one please use lube.

I have no intention of ripping any new ones. I learn as much from these as anyone. Besides, I'm no guru, just made a 90% incompetent claim to Shane and seeing if I'm way off.
My biggest fear in canyoneering is sitting by while someone perishes because I didn't know what to do.

[davehuth]

Just did this last weekend, hauled the person up, she was rather small...there was more that one person on top...the rope was not wrapped around her neck or anything like that. So no fair in this game, but we would not be in the situation with only one rope etc. Good for us that she was happy to go again.

Step one, don't panic and assess the situation. Quadruple the anchor strength. Then choose your best option without killing yourself too...

[Iceaxe]

My first though was just lower a biner on the second rope and have him clip in so I could pull him back upright from up top.....

But now you say he is twisted.....

So maybe lower a biner on the second rope and have him clip and than lower him to the ground after releasing the rope he is tangled in....

But maybe he is disabled?

So why not just tie your second rope into the rap ring up top and set the second rope up as its own rappel/lowering system and than cut the webbing holding the first rope?

No way I'm rigging a system to raise the guy, that's to much like hard work.....

Anyhoo.... that's the direction I'm starting off in..... easy, simple and fast....

[trackrunner]

How did it become twisted? Did it rap around him or twisted up so that it's kind of fireman belaying him?

Wanted to know if it was twisted around him or the rope twisted around itself jaming the device.

A couple ways to do a haul system here one Ice and think someone else mentioned. Lower another rope if he can clip it to himself and raise him using a 3 to 1, 4 to 1, 5 to 1, 6 to 1 system depending on what you think you need.

Another way to raise him is attach a second rope to his rope using prussics or ascenders make sure you got both strands of his rope. then use MA to raise him.

Make sure to use a ratchet or something similar incase you need to stop the raise that he doesn't fall.

For a pick off you can use a second rope. Extend your rap device rigged for extra friction, maybe even two devices if necssary. Rap down to him clip into him using another cowstail running to the device. Lock off. Cut his rope and continue rapping down to saftey. T

Also could rap to him. Lock off, clip into him, help him unweight everything, get him back on rope saftley and then unclip so he can continue rapping on his own.

Another way is use a second rope and securrely attach it the other rope using both strands, prussic, ascenders. Cut his rop obove this and then use the other rope to lower him safley to the ground.

[oldno7]

My first though was just lower a biner on the second rope and have him clip in so I could pull him back upright from up top.....

But now you say he is twisted.....

So maybe lower a biner on the second rope and have him clip and than lower him to the ground after releasing the rope he is tangled in....

But maybe he is disabled?

So why not just tie your second rope into the rap ring up top and set the second rope up as its own rappel/lowering system and than cut the webbing holding the first rope?

No way I'm rigging a system to raise the guy, that's to much like hard work.....

Anyhoo.... that's the direction I'm starting off in..... easy, simple and fast....

I think were gaining------
So, what if instead of trying to lower a biner(victim may or may not be able to help)We attached a grab on the double strands(could be a prusic cord or even 2 tiblocs)Hook a biner through our grab, then attach your rescue rope (that everyone carries in there pack). To the biner and up to a new rapide.(loaded rope is in the first rapide)Then we need to make that rope into a lowering system(any ideas?) before we CUT the existing webbing or rope if necessary.

[davehuth]

Um, there is no other rope in this scenario. Seems the top guy has to go down, or someone on the bottom (if there is someone there) has to jug up. Unless of course the guy on top has enough webbing to use in place of a rope.

[oldno7]

How did it become twisted? Did it rap around him or twisted up so that it's kind of fireman belaying him?

Wanted to know if it was twisted around him or the rope twisted around itself jaming the device.

A couple ways to do a haul system here one Ice and think someone else mentioned. Lower another rope if he can clip it to himself and raise him using a 3 to 1, 4 to 1, 5 to 1, 6 to 1 system depending on what you think you need.

Another way to raise him is attach a second rope to his rope using prussics or ascenders make sure you got both strands of his rope. then use MA to raise him.

Make sure to use a ratchet or something similar incase you need to stop the raise that he doesn't fall.

For a pick off you can use a second rope. Extend your rap device rigged for extra friction, maybe even two devices if necssary. Rap down to him clip into him using another cowstail running to the device. Lock off. Cut his rope and continue rapping down to saftey. T

Also could rap to him. Lock off, clip into him, help him unweight everything, get him back on rope saftley and then unclip so he can continue rapping on his own.

Another way is use a second rope and securrely attach it the other rope using both strands, prussic, ascenders. Cut his rop obove this and then use the other rope to lower him safley to the ground.

Awesome Shaun, I'm with you though. I wouldn't discount hauling our victim back up if it was prudent.

Theres smoother ways to do a pick-off, without cutting the rope.

I like your rap down, evaluate, render aide and send em on there way idea.

[trackrunner]

We attached a grab on the double strands(could be a prusic cord or even 2 tiblocs)Hook a biner through our grab, then attach your rescue rope (that everyone carries in there pack). To the biner and up to a new rapide.(loaded rope is in the first rapide)Then we need to make that rope into a lowering system(any ideas?) before we CUT the existing webbing or rope if necessary.

Kurt I tired to describe this lowering system earlier cutting the rope. I didn't say make a new rapide but it was obvious to me no way am I going to lower someone hand over hand so I had odmitted if from my earlier post.

How to make the rope into a lowering system could use a munter, your own rap device or contigency style anchor with a figure 8 etc.