Disasters are a part of Zion National Park's history

[stefan]

Imagine not belonging to a forum full of "professionals" to give you exact details on what to do in certain situations.

Imagine trying to be safe, evaluating the situation, and doing what you thought was the best decision in a tense situation.

And then you make a mistake and die, and the "professionals" call you a dipshit and don't give a rat's ass if your children ever read about it.

Sorry guys, the dude wasn't as awesome as some of you are, and made a mistake. I classify him as "not a dipshit".

Read the story, do Kolob. You will understand, the guy was a danger to himself and others. And a bully. If it is still available, the extensive story on High Country News is really good. He broke rule #2. Dipshit.

T

High Country News - Whose fault? A Utah canyon turns deadly
http://www.hcn.org/issues/14/409

[Deathcricket]

High Country News - Whose fault? A Utah canyon turns deadly
http://www.hcn.org/issues/14/409

I found that article extremely interesting. Thanks for posting it. Some stuff I learned that i didn't know before...

Among related cases, in Yosemite National Park, a man successfully sued to require the Park Service to post a sign on the barren granite peak, Half Dome. The sign states the obvious, warning hikers not to stand on the peak during lightning storms.

In Alaska's Denali National Park, already this year, 26 climbers have required rescue. The Park Service is considering charging a new $200-per-climber fee to offset the $10,000 cost of each rescue. Park officials are also considering designating a "no rescue" zone in Denali: Climbers who cross the line are on their own.

In January, the survivors and relatives of the dead men filed 13 claims seeking a $24,556,813 payment for damages, injuries or death under the Federal Tort Claims Act, which says the federal government can in certain cases be held liable.

Several church members wrote letters to the editor to the Salt Lake Tribune, criticizing the suit and saying the church stresses free will and personal responsibility.

And some stuff I did know.

From the lip of the falls, Fleischer tested the force of the whirlpool at its base, tying a rope to his pack and throwing the pack into the pool. The pack got sucked under and could not be pulled free. Fleischer decided he had to try anyway.

/armchair quarterback time

Fact 1. A person just died in their party due to forces generated from earlier whirlpools.
Fact 2. He tossed his pack into a whirlpool and could not pull it free no matter how hard he tried.
Fact 3. Dude jumps into a whirlpool to grab a pack he can't physically pull out.

Conclusion : Darwin Award. Any person with self preservation skills would know that jumping into a whirlpool that generates forces strong enough to permanently trap a backpack is foolish.

I do understand the "well you weren't there" argument. But we have 4-5 kids and an adult telling the same story so I think it's safe to gather what happened without being there. I'm with The Emperor on this one.

[Iceaxe]

For those who have not done Kolob let me provide a little inside info I learned. I read the Kolob stories long before I did the canyon so I was excited to see what the situation really was like.... and here is my prospective on the canyon, yours might differ....

You hike in for several miles through the forest, you eventually reach this nice stream and follow it down until the bottom falls out of the world. At this point the nice little stream becomes a raging monster as is thunders and crashes off the narrow canyon walls.... depending on the stream flow you say one of two things.... Cool or Oh Shit!

If you say Cool that means things look fun and you continue downstream.

If you say Oh Shit! that means you turn around and live to play anther day. And have a long ass hike back out of the canyon.

When the scouts hit the top of the slot they all said Oh Shit! and than continued on because one member of the group said it was no big deal.... and no one else in the group had any experience or knowledge to disagree.....

Anyhoo.... that is just my opinion of Kolob... I'm not picking sides, just trying to help those who have never done Kolob understand what things look like before committing.

You are all free to continue your friendly food fight....

[RedMan]

Imagine not belonging to a forum full of "professionals" to give you exact details on what to do in certain situations.

Imagine trying to be safe, evaluating the situation, and doing what you thought was the best decision in a tense situation.

And then you make a mistake and die, and the "professionals" call you a dipshit and don't give a rat's ass if your children ever read about it.

Sorry guys, the dude wasn't as awesome as some of you are, and made a mistake. I classify him as "not a dipshit".

Read the story, do Kolob. You will understand, the guy was a danger to himself and others. And a bully. If it is still available, the extensive story on High Country News is really good. He broke rule #2. Dipshit.

T

Thanks for casting your asshatness into concrete Tom.

[DiscGo]

Since the church group had canceled its hike twice before due to high water, Turville suspects there was an inclination to press ahead rather than turn back a third time.

I had never heard this part of the story, and I also did not know that the two men died at separate places. I found that very interesting and can see that they were more at fault that I had originally thought.


I do not have the same connection to this trip as James, but I can tell you guys that I was in Zion when this happened and my scout troop was the first to hike the Narrows after it was re-opened (they closed it for a couple of days while they searched for the bodies). I know that many of you are literally experts and you know what you are talking about, so I won't disagree with you. But I will say that I just don't see a reason to bad mouth these guys who have already been through enough. The whole park had a more somber feel and I still remember the sorrow I felt for them while being there.

[nat]

Imagine not belonging to a forum full of "professionals" to give you exact details on what to do in certain situations.

Imagine trying to be safe, evaluating the situation, and doing what you thought was the best decision in a tense situation.

And then you make a mistake and die, and the "professionals" call you a dipshit and don't give a rat's ass if your children ever read about it.

Sorry guys, the dude wasn't as awesome as some of you are, and made a mistake. I classify him as "not a dipshit".

Read the story, do Kolob. You will understand, the guy was a danger to himself and others. And a bully. If it is still available, the extensive story on High Country News is really good. He broke rule #2. Dipshit.

T

I've followed this story from the beginning, and just reread the High Country News story. It is a good article, although I didn't see anything in it about the guy being a bully. I do believe strongly in personal responsibility, and they certainly made some big mistakes. Because of that, I was against the families law suite. But, to spit on his grave, and publicly, repeatedly call him a dipshit? Whatever..., I guess if it makes you feel good.

The ironic thing is, that if Tom were to get himself killed in Kolob tomorrow, most people on this forum would consider it a disaster, even if it was his own fault.

Nat

[oldno7]

I can only guess Tom is trying to burn a vivid picture in everyones mind to prove a point. While I don't agree with his delivery, if the message is "are you prepared" for whatever comes your way in a canyon? I'm with him.
When canyoneering goes well, it is very easy and we all have a great time. When it goes bad, it is in places that if you are to survive you must rely on your own self(group) rescue techniques.
I would venture a guess that 90% of canyoneers are ill prepared for adversity in a canyon.
So if Tom's point is somehow to encourage everyone to get enough training to be able to save yourself and others in your group, point well taken. If his point is to belittle a group and their leaders.......I don't see the point.

And as a side note--I was in the group who got caught in the neon keeper early in 08. One of our group was extremely hypothermic and lifeless in the pool. We had the training to set up haul systems and pull him from the pool.
All turned out good, but this had potential to be similar to the Kolob incident.
We got monday morning quarterbacked to death. Luckily we were able to learn from this experience and become better prepared. We made mistakes, but overcame them with prior training.

[trackrunner]

I can only guess Tom is trying to burn a vivid picture in everyones mind to prove a point. While I don't agree with his delivery, if the message is "are you prepared" for whatever comes your way in a canyon? I'm with him.
When canyoneering goes well, it is very easy and we all have a great time. When it goes bad, it is in places that if you are to survive you must rely on your own self(group) rescue techniques.
I would venture a guess that 90% of canyoneers are ill prepared for adversity in a canyon.
So if Tom's point is somehow to encourage everyone to get enough training to be able to save yourself and others in your group, point well taken. If his point is to belittle a group and their leaders.......I don't see the point.

And as a side note--I was in the group who got caught in the neon keeper early in 08. One of our group was extremely hypothermic and lifeless in the pool. We had the training to set up haul systems and pull him from the pool.
All turned out good, but this had potential to be similar to the Kolob incident.
We got monday morning quarterbacked to death. Luckily we were able to learn from this experience and become better prepared. We made mistakes, but overcame them with prior training.

QFE great post

[Iceaxe]

I would venture a guess that 90% of canyoneers are ill prepared for adversity in a canyon.

If you are talking Zion canyoneers I would totally agree.... if talking CP canyoneers as a whole I think your number is way high.... I've found those venturing to areas outside of Zion to be much better prepared...

I've always assumed this is the amusement park type attitude that surrounds Zion. Those who drive 50 miles down crappy dirt roads in the Roost, Escalante and Swell seem to have a much better grasp on reality....

Just my 2 cents.....

[Sombeech]

OK, let me clarify my point, just in case some day there actually will be honor in arguing on the internet.


A few weeks ago I spent 5 days on the Yampa River, there were 25 of us including Alex and Scott.

There was a "classified dipshit" in a paddleboat who was always shouting orders, even though he wasn't in charge. He had minimal experience, and didn't follow directions. He was to blame for the boat flipping on a very small rapid the first day.

I hopped in their boat to help them out on a pretty big rapid. He was still up to his same tricks, shouting orders and doing the opposite of what he should have done. Fortunately we made it through.

You may know that you've pretty much got to have your shit together on these rivers too, as there are more deaths per year than in canyoneering.

Here's the video of that dude, with me filming. He's in the red. Watch him dip his paddle into the water about 4 inches.




So if this guy would have flipped in a different rapid and died, we all would have acknowledged that he was very inexperienced, didn't follow orders, and yadda yadda, but I don't think I would have insulted him after death.

[RedMan]

I can only guess Tom is trying to burn a vivid picture in everyones mind to prove a point. While I don't agree with his delivery, if the message is "are you prepared" for whatever comes your way in a canyon?

Really? You go this from Toms post? Wow, you read a lot more into it than I did. Perhaps he should have stated something to that effect.

I got "These guys got what they deserved, they were dipshits"
How you got more than that I'll never know.

So if Tom's point is somehow to encourage everyone to get enough training to be able to save yourself and others in your group, point well taken.

Hmm I do not see that in there at all.

If his point is to belittle a group and their leaders.......I don't see the point.

The point was to make Tom look like he's very smart and capable and that sort of thing could not happen to him through demeaning the victims and their families. Its typical of people who just have to prop themselves up even if it involves another persons tragedy. Its very sad and Tom needs some help.

The ironic thing is, that if Tom were to get himself killed in Kolob tomorrow, most people on this forum would consider it a disaster, even if it was his own fault.

What about it DeathCricket? Would you be in here telling us all that Tom was an idiot and got what he deserved and nominating him for a Darwin award?

I'd consider it a tragedy, perhaps TRY to learn something from it. But I would NOT be publicly lambasting him, calling him names and generally soiling his memory. That is a sign of NO CLASS.

If I had some real expertise on the topic that lead to his death I would try to share that in a constructive way rather than simply calling him names, posting conjecture about how his children would feel finding out he was a loser that got what he deserved and generally pissing on his memory.

What an asshat.

[oldno7]

I can only guess Tom is trying to burn a vivid picture in everyones mind to prove a point. While I don't agree with his delivery, if the message is "are you prepared" for whatever comes your way in a canyon?

Really? You go this from Toms post? Wow, you read a lot more into it than I did. Perhaps he should have stated something to that effect.

I got "These guys got what they deserved, they were dipshits"
How you got more than that I'll never know.

So if Tom's point is somehow to encourage everyone to get enough training to be able to save yourself and others in your group, point well taken.

Hmm I do not see that in there at all.

If his point is to belittle a group and their leaders.......I don't see the point.

The point was to make Tom look like he's very smart and capable and that sort of thing could not happen to him through demeaning the victims and their families. Its typical of people who just have to prop themselves up even if it involves another persons tragedy. Its very sad and Tom needs some help.

The ironic thing is, that if Tom were to get himself killed in Kolob tomorrow, most people on this forum would consider it a disaster, even if it was his own fault.

What about it DeathCricket? Would you be in here telling us all that Tom was an idiot and got what he deserved and nominating him for a Darwin award?

I'd consider it a tragedy, perhaps TRY to learn something from it. But I would NOT be publicly lambasting him, calling him names and generally soiling his memory. That is a sign of NO CLASS.

If I had some real expertise on the topic that lead to his death I would try to share that in a constructive way rather than simply calling him names, posting conjecture about how his children would feel finding out he was a loser that got what he deserved and generally pissing on his memory.

What an asshat.

Redman----see that first quote of mine you put up^^^^^^^"I can only guess"
Then how bout quoting all that is pertinent to my stance:

"So if Tom's point is somehow to encourage everyone to get enough training to be able to save yourself and others in your group, point well taken. If his point is to belittle a group and their leaders.......I don't see the point."

You see when I write "somehow". It denotes uncertainty on my part.
Are we getting any clearer?

[RedMan]

I can only guess Tom is trying to burn a vivid picture in everyones mind to prove a point. While I don't agree with his delivery, if the message is "are you prepared" for whatever comes your way in a canyon?

Really? You go this from Toms post? Wow, you read a lot more into it than I did. Perhaps he should have stated something to that effect.

I got "These guys got what they deserved, they were dipshits"
How you got more than that I'll never know.

So if Tom's point is somehow to encourage everyone to get enough training to be able to save yourself and others in your group, point well taken.

Hmm I do not see that in there at all.

If his point is to belittle a group and their leaders.......I don't see the point.

The point was to make Tom look like he's very smart and capable and that sort of thing could not happen to him through demeaning the victims and their families. Its typical of people who just have to prop themselves up even if it involves another persons tragedy. Its very sad and Tom needs some help.

The ironic thing is, that if Tom were to get himself killed in Kolob tomorrow, most people on this forum would consider it a disaster, even if it was his own fault.

What about it DeathCricket? Would you be in here telling us all that Tom was an idiot and got what he deserved and nominating him for a Darwin award?

I'd consider it a tragedy, perhaps TRY to learn something from it. But I would NOT be publicly lambasting him, calling him names and generally soiling his memory. That is a sign of NO CLASS.

If I had some real expertise on the topic that lead to his death I would try to share that in a constructive way rather than simply calling him names, posting conjecture about how his children would feel finding out he was a loser that got what he deserved and generally pissing on his memory.

What an asshat.

Redman----see that first quote of mine you put up^^^^^^^"I can only guess"
Then how bout quoting all that is pertinent to my stance:

"So if Tom's point is somehow to encourage everyone to get enough training to be able to save yourself and others in your group, point well taken. If his point is to belittle a group and their leaders.......I don't see the point."

You see when I write "somehow". It denotes uncertainty on my part.
Are we getting any clearer?

Oldno7,
My apologies, I was using your post to make my point, not find fault with you or your post. I did understand your meaning.

Sorry about that.

[oldno7]

No blood no foul

I'm just trying to see the logic in Tom's posting also. I don't believe he's a bad guy. I wish I had more in depth details of the actual event, so I could learn from fact's rather than speculation. Tragedy's such as these need to benefit the community at large so mistakes aren't repeated. I think in so doing it makes the event more of a learning aid rather than a tragedy.
If any of these were my family it would make me rest easier knowing others benefited from the information and learned from the event.

[James_B_Wads2000]

Conclusion : Darwin Award. Any person with self preservation skills would know that jumping into a whirlpool that generates forces strong enough to permanently trap a backpack is foolish.

Not surprised you find you on the wrong side of this argument. Your compassion for your fellow humans is legendary. But by all means keep digging

[Deathcricket]

What about it DeathCricket? Would you be in here telling us all that Tom was an idiot and got what he deserved and nominating him for a Darwin award?

Hey now! usually you and I see more eye to eye on issues, I'm a little surprised. I wouldn't go so far to say he "deserved it" because that indicates I wanted it to happen to him. But my empathy is completely on the poor scouts who "innocently" followed this dumbass on the trip. And zero tolerance, even anger is directed towards him for putting the kids in this situation. Clear? I completely understand Rat's position on this. maybe he's a little harsh but the truth of the matter is this guy was a complete idiot and did a completely stupid thing that ended his life.

To answer your question, I think you have to rate each instance by itself. God forbid another accident happens. Tom doesn't strike me as someone who would jump into a whirlpool to retrieve a stuck backback. But if it was reported by 5 witnesses to the event that he did something really stupid, I would call him a dumbass too. I think he would even expect it.

How about I give another example. Last Thursday I was rock climbing at the Chuckwalla trailhead. I saw a dude there climbing without a harness. These are 30-40 foot drops and rated 5.10-5.13's. He was climbing the 5.11's and doing really good I admit. He didn't have much trouble at all scaling these vertical faces. But I told him to his face he was a dumbass and why not clip in and use a harness/rope? He said "I climb 5.13's all the time and this is too frigging easy for me". I said simply "One slip and you're dead" to which he replied "then I just won't slip". So if I came on this board and posted in the climbing section "tragic accident, some dude splats on rocks in St george climbing without ropes or harness". I wouldn't be very sympathetic I guess. To other people that would be a huge tradgedy. they would be thinking "oh well the rock must have given away" or "his hands must have been sweaty". I hold the person accountable for their actions, period. That's totally different than accidentally not tieing a knot correct, an anchor breaking, equipment malfunction or many other problems that arise. The blame lies completely on this idiot and no one else.

Just to be clear, are we debating what the guy did was stupid based on the facts presented? Or are we argueing that the stories the scouts and surviving adult aren't accurate and there is perhaps another explanation? I'm just having trouble believing we are argueing that a guy who jumped into a whirlpool during flooded condidtions after tossing his pack in and understanding how powerful the current was... Wasn't an incredibly stupid thing to do. Especially given the fact someone had just died not an hour earlier..

[James_B_Wads2000]

the truth of the matter is this guy was a complete idiot and did a completely stupid thing that ended his life.

Cricket

[nat]

Just to be clear, are we debating what the guy did was stupid based on the facts presented? Or are we argueing that the stories the scouts and surviving adult aren't accurate and there is perhaps another explanation? I'm just having trouble believing we are argueing that a guy who jumped into a whirlpool during flooded condidtions after tossing his pack in and understanding how powerful the current was... Wasn't an incredibly stupid thing to do. Especially given the fact someone had just died not an hour earlier..

I guess what some of us have a problem with is when someone makes a mistake in the outdoors, and pays for it with his life, others jump in with public statements like "dipshit", "idiot!", "what a dumbass!", and "he sure deserves the Darwin award!". My guess is that a big majority of us on this forum have made similar mistakes and were just lucky. If my son died in a car accident while not wearing a seat belt, and some asshat posted a message saying "what a fool!", I wouldn't have a very high opinion such a person.

Nat

[RedMan]

If I ever die while on one of my adventures I sure hope nobody here makes a post about it.

[Scott P]

I found that very interesting and can see that they were more at fault that I had originally thought.

I hope to not get involved with this pissing match and maybe it best to let sleeping dogs lie, but I personally know that the leaders of the trip were warned about dangerous conditions in the canyon before they went.

One of my Father's friends (I believe it was Dale Green?) was ask by the leader about information on the canyon. When told that the canyon was in too dangerous condition and to take take scouts through, the leader was rather abrasive and said something to the effect that "I didn't ask if I should go or not; I ask for infomation on the canyon" or something to that effect.

Although, I don't agree with slamming the dead, it is not fair to claim that the leaders were not fairly warned as some articles on the subject try to claim.

PS, I do know that Tom knows at least one of the people who testified on the case involving the lawsuit, so I would guess he does know more about the incident than people on this thread might think, but I won't go there.

Still, there is little use in beating up someone who is already dead and paid the ultimate price. We can all learn from mistakes, either our own or others. We all make them.