First canyoneering trip..ZION for 7 days!!

[sarahlizzy]

Wake up and get to permit window at 4, but yet again we only attempted to get mystery, we were beat out by some 3:30 dude.

Eek!

And just so you know, "Everyone loves the permit system, because it works for them so well!!!"

Oh well - at least I have a good book to read while waiting. Think I saw a picture of it recently, actually

[Scott Card]

I am forwarding your trip report to Park Staff. Great to have a trip centered around getting to the permit office at the "correct" hour, eh? Sleep deprivation really enhances the wilderness experience.

Tom

Actually, let me change that to a request - could you send the text of your trip report to the Park, with a cover letter that explains how wonderful the permit system enhanced the wilderness quality of your trip --- NOT! oops, sarcasm is not a good technique for official letters...

The address is:

Superintendent
Zion National Park
Springdale, UT 84767

Thanks, Tom

ps. taking out the effusive "thanks to Tom" might be a good idea.

I think I will draft a letter expressing my thanks for the process to use the express permit system. I was in Cedar City on business on Friday and decided to make a special trip to the BackCountry desk to watch the poop video just so I could get my permits online. What great system. Special trip to get permits in the future in an effort to avoid the early morning lines. I guess all was not lost. I got to wait for 20 minutes to find a parking spot at Pine Creek/Observation Point trailhead parking lot so I could walk the trail to observation point. (I was going to squeze in Pine Creek but the nasty dark clouds forming were too much for me) I had a lovely walk to commune with nature with about 70 of my closest friends, none of which I know. Ahhh the solitude.....

On a positive note. The "Desk Copy" of the Zion canyons at the back country desk is Tom's book. So did that replace the old "black book" or is that still there? Also the nice rangerette was nice to me and mustn't have realized that I was one of the Mapleton trouble makers. Oh, and ZAC owes me big. I sent three tourists to them for wetsuit rentals for their big adventure in Keyhole.

Back on topic, great TR and thanks for the photos. It does me good to see the canyons while I sit here at the office.

[moab mark]

I'm sure Tom and many others have met with the Park Service on the backcountry permit system. I would guess probably every other way of doing this has been discussed. But it seems like if the park service handed out a # to those that are in line for x permit at 7:00 am for a lottery at 7:05. Yes there would be more people there to try and get a mystery but this insane concept of showing up at 2:00 am would be over. After lottery then the permits would be first come first serve. Just drop the #'s in a hat and draw. You could show up at five to 7 and hope.
Last year when we were staying in watchman with our Scouts. There were people sleeping out on the cement at 1:30 one morning?

Mark

[ratagonia]

I'm sure Tom and many others have met with the Park Service on the backcountry permit system. I would guess probably every other way of doing this has been discussed. But it seems like if the park service handed out a # to those that are in line for x permit at 7:00 am for a lottery at 7:05. Yes there would be more people there to try and get a mystery but this insane concept of showing up at 2:00 am would be over. After lottery then the permits would be first come first serve. Just drop the #'s in a hat and draw. You could show up at five to 7 and hope.
Last year when we were staying in watchman with our Scouts. There were people sleeping out on the cement at 1:30 one morning?

Mark

I have talked with the Park Service. They tell me: "everyone loves the permit system, we have very few complaints". and, "there's only a few people that don't like the system, and you are one of them", and "I know it doesn't work for you, but we are trying to build a permit system that works for the majority of visitors, not people like you that do a lot of canyons".

They say this because very few people complain.

Tom

[jman]

I'm sure Tom and many others have met with the Park Service on the backcountry permit system. I would guess probably every other way of doing this has been discussed. But it seems like if the park service handed out a # to those that are in line for x permit at 7:00 am for a lottery at 7:05. Yes there would be more people there to try and get a mystery but this insane concept of showing up at 2:00 am would be over. After lottery then the permits would be first come first serve. Just drop the #'s in a hat and draw. You could show up at five to 7 and hope.
Last year when we were staying in watchman with our Scouts. There were people sleeping out on the cement at 1:30 one morning?

Mark

I have talked with the Park Service. They tell me: "everyone loves the permit system, we have very few complaints". and, "there's only a few people that don't like the system, and you are one of them", and "I know it doesn't work for you, but we are trying to build a permit system that works for the majority of visitors, not people like you that do a lot of canyons".

They say this because very few people complain.

Tom

haha...that's actually funny.

On memorial weekend I got a permit for Das Boot: I got there at 7am and waitted close till 8:30 IN LINE waiting for everyone. The line was probably about 15 people ahead me. An 1 1/2 waiting for 15 people! I was going nuts just waiting around and hearing everyone go to the desk: "So what's good here?" "What do you recommend?" "Hows your job?" "What's the weather like?" How long does the Subway take?" "How come there is no permits left for the Subway". etc. It was so irritating because it seemed like everyone wasn't prepared for any hike (beta wise) and asking 4 (or was it 5-i lost count) trillion questions about the Subway. ugg....

Oh, and it would definitely speed up the process if everyone knew the license plate numbers of ALL their vehicles. It's always the same of people running back and forth and waiting 5-10min to get the #.

And maybe they should have a seperate line for people who are getting walk-in permits and those who have reserved their permits online, they could potentially speed things up quite a bit.

[moab mark]

Tom,
When I am down there next week I would like to just here there reasoning. Do you know who is in charge of the backcountry desk? Is it the superintendent? Or someone else?

Mark

[mmac]

Not to hijack the thread (sorry cookiecutter) but I'm planing on trying to get walkup permits for this weekend. Will they give me permits if I haven't seen the video? Can I get permits and then watch the vid? Is the vid required for in person permit pickup? Should I drive up Friday to do the orientation and then do the walkup Saturday morning?

[Stick]

Not to hijack the thread (sorry cookiecutter) but I'm planing on trying to get walkup permits for this weekend. Will they give me permits if I haven't seen the video? Can I get permits and then watch the vid? Is the vid required for in person permit pickup? Should I drive up Friday to do the orientation and then do the walkup Saturday morning?

The video is for people who want to sign up for the Zion Express permits. This lets people pay for permits online up to three days in advance. Well worth it (I think) if you plan on doing any more canyoneering in Zion.

But to answer your question, you don't need to watch the video to pick up permits in person.

[MiCanyoneer]

Even with the Express Permit System. If you are trying to do a canyon like Mystery and don't get a lottery pick you are still waiting in line to get the Permit.

I also wish I could transfer my normal reservations to the express reservation. Since I already made my reservation but can not get an express acount till I get there.

They should allow people to watch the video online.

Kevin from Michigan who will be waiting in line from the June 19-25

[Stick]

Even with the Express Permit System. If you are trying to do a canyon like Mystery and don't get a lottery pick you are still waiting in line to get the Permit.

I also wish I could transfer my normal reservations to the express reservation. Since I already made my reservation but can not get an express acount till I get there.

They should allow people to watch the video online.

Kevin from Michigan who will be waiting in line from the June 19-25

That is true, the express permits only help for permits you reserve online, and only if you are logged in when you make the reservation. I too wish they could match normal reservations with express accounts.

[ratagonia]

haha...that's actually funny.

On memorial weekend I got a permit for Das Boot: I got there at 7am and waitted close till 8:30 IN LINE waiting for everyone. The line was probably about 15 people ahead me. An 1 1/2 waiting for 15 people! I was going nuts just waiting around and hearing everyone go to the desk: "So what's good here?" "What do you recommend?" "Hows your job?" "What's the weather like?" How long does the Subway take?" "How come there is no permits left for the Subway". etc. It was so irritating because it seemed like everyone wasn't prepared for any hike (beta wise) and asking 4 (or was it 5-i lost count) trillion questions about the Subway. ugg....

Oh, and it would definitely speed up the process if everyone knew the license plate numbers of ALL their vehicles. It's always the same of people running back and forth and waiting 5-10min to get the #.

And maybe they should have a seperate line for people who are getting walk-in permits and those who have reserved their permits online, they could potentially speed things up quite a bit.

Superintendent
Zion National Park
Springdale, UT 84767

[ratagonia]

Tom,
When I am down there next week I would like to just here there reasoning. Do you know who is in charge of the backcountry desk? Is it the superintendent? Or someone else?

Mark

Reasoning? Read the backcountry plan. Ask for one when you are at the BC Desk.

Annette is "in charge" of the desk. Ray is the "Plateau District Ranger", the main decision maker. But if you want to get stuff done, you complain to the Superintendent.

Tom

[Iceaxe]

But if you want to get stuff done, you complain to the Superintendent.

I agree.... bitching to anyone else... desk ranger, your buddy, your wife, those on Bogley...... does no good.

I just don't bother with most permits anymore..... OOPS!!!.... did I say that out loud?

Civil disobedience is the active refusal to obey certain laws, demands and commands of a government, or of an occupying power, without resorting to physical violence. It is one of the primary tactics of nonviolent resistance.

.

[lisa]

"camp disappointment" (there were no girls there).


she was border line loony, but she took a picture of us with our wet suites half off lookin manly, so we thought "hey, she is cool people."

Nice trip report, nice writing!

[moab mark]

Tom,
When I am down there next week I would like to just here there reasoning. Do you know who is in charge of the backcountry desk? Is it the superintendent? Or someone else?

Mark

Reasoning? Read the backcountry plan. Ask for one when you are at the BC Desk.

Annette is "in charge" of the desk. Ray is the "Plateau District Ranger", the main decision maker. But if you want to get stuff done, you complain to the Superintendent.

Tom

Has anyone got his email address. We should start sending him emails with positive suggestions.

Mark

[ratagonia]

Tom,
When I am down there next week I would like to just here there reasoning. Do you know who is in charge of the backcountry desk? Is it the superintendent? Or someone else?

Mark

Reasoning? Read the backcountry plan. Ask for one when you are at the BC Desk.

Annette is "in charge" of the desk. Ray is the "Plateau District Ranger", the main decision maker. But if you want to get stuff done, you complain to the Superintendent.

Tom

Has anyone got his email address. We should start sending him emails with positive suggestions.

Mark

email? How modern do you think the Park Service is?

I'm only half-kidding. Annette and Ray would love to modernize the BC Desk, but are hampered by a lack of technology and no budget for stuff, like making kiosks for self-check-in.

And I suggest written letters to the Super as the only avenue that will effect any political change. email does not count. written letters count.

EDIT TO ADD: PLEASE also put as a subject "RE: Complaint about the backcountry permit system". Why? Because the Parks are supposed to track complaints. If it is not clearly labeled a 'complaint', it is not clear that the park has to put it in their tally of complaints, even if it rather obviously is. Early on, I did an FOIA request for complaints about crowding in the canyons - the park had no such complaints.

Tom

[trackrunner]

And I suggest written letters to the Super as the only avenue that will effect any political change. email does not count. written letters count.

Tom

Tom has a point. Emails can be treated so easily like spam. Can't easily look over bags of mail each day. Sure it could be thrown out like junk mail but every single day would have to physicaly look at the mail before throwing out rather than hitting delete before reading.

[Iceaxe]

Early on, I did an FOIA request for complaints about crowding in the canyons - the park had no such complaints.

I knew the dozen or so letters I have written were sent to the round file.

And I want to ROGER Tom's suggrestions. Send a written letter, clearly mark it as a "complaint". It makes it hard for the the NPS to bury such a letter.

.

[cookiecutter]

Actually, let me change that to a request - could you send the text of your trip report to the Park, with a cover letter that explains how wonderful the permit system enhanced the wilderness quality of your trip --- NOT! oops, sarcasm is not a good technique for official letters...

Yep I'll write it up and send it in the mail. I grew well angry with the permit system while we were there.

And you should have an e-mail with the picture and credits, if not just let me know. I could have messed up in the sending of it

[Felicia]

Very nice trip report. I really enjoyed your writing and the pictures are awesome!