Englestead or Birch Hollow

[moab mark]

Have done birch hollow several times with scouts and then gone out orderville. Planning a trip for the first part of june. They want to due orderville. Have never done englestead is it alot better then Birch? I have a 300 ft. rope. But not real excited to haul all that rope down orderville. Those in the group haven't been down either. WOuld shuttle to the start of either.

Birch or Englestead?

Mark

[trackrunner]

I like Englstead and also Birch. But would choose Englstead down orderville over Birch down Orderville. Personally I only do Birch and exit out. Still would take Englstead down Orderville over Birch and out.

Can also do Orderville directly.

Are you taking scouts down Englstead? I only take experienced people down Englstead. There is the 300 ft rappel or breaking it up into smaller rappels from hanging bolt stations. Also there are many rappels from natural anchors with awkward starts. Need to be comfortable with that before going.

[moab mark]

No these are not scouts. They have all rappeled 300' before. I am not looking forward to the hike down the dry part of orderville. Have done that way to many times with scouts. Is the 300' what gives englestead the 4 rating?

Mark

[trackrunner]

No these are not scouts. They have all rappeled 300' before. I am not looking forward to the hike down the dry part of orderville. Have done that way to many times with scouts.

Yeah I'm not a big fan of Orderville because of that long boring dry hike. That's why I will never do Birch down Orderville becuae you get dropped out right at the head of Orderville. Englstead comes in right below the first rappel in Orderville. So you would hit the best parts of Orderville if exiting down.

Is the 300' what gives englestead the 4 rating?

Mark

Yes. Some give the rating if doing all 300' at once as a class 3, others rate it as a class 4 because the 300' is a step up from others. The 300' can be broken up into multiple rappels from the hanging rappel stations on the cliff wall. That is class 4.

[oldno7]

Mark
Englestead is a great route and considering you've all done Birch Hollow, it's almost a no-brainer to do Englestead. Some will call it cheating, but you can leave your 300' rope at the first rappel and come back and get it. It's a pretty good walk down and back to the first rap, so just bring some youth with you and make them pack it through the canyon.

[nat]

Personally I think Englestead is much better than Birch. A lot more "meat on the bone". Birch ends just as you're getting warmed up. Englestead is a longer slot with more stuff to work through. It also enters Orderville just as that canyon gets really good.

Nat

Have done birch hollow several times with scouts and then gone out orderville. Planning a trip for the first part of june. They want to due orderville. Have never done englestead is it alot better then Birch? I have a 300 ft. rope. But not real excited to haul all that rope down orderville. Those in the group haven't been down either. WOuld shuttle to the start of either.

Birch or Englestead?

Mark

[trackrunner]

Some will call it cheating, but you can leave your 300' rope at the first rappel and come back and get it.

I remember someone posted in the canyons e group last year that when they came back to get their rppe the next day it was stolen. Only stolen rope I've heard of at this drop.

Mark doing Englstead down Orderville is on my hit list. I exited up Orderville the only time doing Englstead.

Also remember there was snow bridges in that canyon during June last year. Someone posted pics and TR from a few weeks ago and there were snow bridges.

[Iceaxe]

Is the 300' what gives englestead the 4 rating?

The 4 rating in Englestead is because you are forced to do a 300' rappel or a hanging mid-wall station transfer. Outside of the entrance there is nothing difficult about Englestead.

We have always done the transfer because I hate packing weight. I've done the mid-wall station transfer with inexperianced canyoneers. We just belay them from the top until they are safely on the second rope. The transfer is 80' below the rim. There is a small 6" perch to stand on at the transfer so you are not hanging in space.

[taatmk]

I have done Birch before, but not Englestead yet. I found the hike down Birch and out Orderville to be fairly lengthy and obviously assume the out bound walk doing Englestead to be much less.

Question for those who know. is the 300 foot entry rap in Englestead all wall walking, or is there any free hanging portion(s) to it?

Thanks.

[Iceaxe]

Question for those who know. is the 300 foot entry rap in Englestead all wall walking, or is there any free hanging portion(s) to it?

Depends where you rappel in at... If you rappel using the anchors for the mid station (located 20' around the west side) it's all wall walking and no free hanging....

But.... a lot of folks entering with a 300' rope rappel in right down the beautifully fluted watercourse. I've never entered this way so someone correct me if I'm wrong.... but I believe its all wall walking and no free hanging....

[moab mark]

Is the 300' what gives englestead the 4 rating?

We have always done the transfer because I hate packing weight. I've done the mid-wall station transfer with inexperianced canyoneers. We just belay them from the top until they are safely on the second rope. The transfer is 80' below the rim. There is a small 6" perch to stand on at the transfer so you are not hanging in space.

So if it is a true 300' Rappeling to the perch 80' a 200' won't get you to the bottom? Haven't got a 220'. But carrying 600' does not sound fun. But either way seems like it is going to take alot of rope. Which shuttle in town can you hire to haul you out there. Hike to first rappel and haul your rope back to town. Now I am liking that idea.

Mark

[trackrunner]

Question for those who know. is the 300 foot entry rap in Englestead all wall walking, or is there any free hanging portion(s) to it?

Thanks.

There was a free hanging portion from the tree on the left LDC. Most of it was vertical wall but somewhere past halfway it goes free hanging to the pothole. From the pothole it is all wall walking to the bottom. Be careful how you rig for friction at the freehanging. It can become quite fast there, but slow at the begining.

[trackrunner]

So if it is a true 300' Rappeling to the perch 80' a 200' won't get you to the bottom? Haven't got a 220'. But carrying 600' does not sound fun. But either way seems like it is going to take alot of rope. Which shuttle in town can you hire to haul you out there. Hike to first rappel and haul your rope back to town. Now I am liking that idea.

Mark

It's not a true 300'. Think it's a 280 or 260' Most beta round it up to 300' since that is the next standard rope lenght for a drop that size.

[Iceaxe]

It's not a true 300'. Think it's a 280 or 260' Most beta round it up to 300' since that is the next standard rope lenght for a drop that size.

The complete rappel from top to bottom is over 285' using the standard mid stage route....

But there is a nice ledge about 20' short of the bottom with a bolt hidden in the corner if your rope is a little short..... or at least there was....

The mid wall bolt station to the ground was 205' last time I was there. We measured it. Most 60 meter ropes reach the ground with rope stretch. I have seen the bottom of the canyon raise and drop 5' at the entrance rappel depending on the amount of sediment deposited in the last storm.

[trackrunner]

It's not a true 300'. Think it's a 280 or 260' Most beta round it up to 300' since that is the next standard rope lenght for a drop that size.

The complete rappel from top to bottom is over 285' using the standard mid stage route....

But there is a nice ledge about 20' short of the bottom with a bolt hidden in the corner if your rope is a little short..... or at least there was....

The mid wall bolt station to the ground was 205' last time I was there. We measured it. Most 60 meter ropes reach the ground with rope stretch. I have seen the bottom of the canyon raise and drop 5' at the entrance rappel depending on the amount of sediment deposited in the last storm.

When I went in the fall of 2007 there are two lower bolt stations by the bowl shaped ledge/pot hole one was hanging bolt station and another where you can safley stand if you make it to the bowl. The 3 mid wall bolt stations are the only bolts in the canyon.

You might be right on the length. Know it was a little short of 300ft.

[ratagonia]

You might be right on the length. Know it was a little short of 300ft.

Wow, lots of confusion there ---

At the HEAD of Engelstead, the rappel is about 240 feet, down the chute. There is a big tree to anchor it from, please do not PULL it from there, and please do not leave a sling.

From the SIDE TREE in Engelstead, as a 2-stage, it is about 80 feet down to the two-bolt station in the corner, and then about 190 feet to the big ledge. There is a two-bolt station on the ledge that allows rapping 40' to the next big pothole ledge. There is a bolt station about 15 feet off the deck there on a tiny ledge - obviously, someone had a bad day!

From the SIDE TREE, as a single stage, it is almost exactly 300 feet to the lower big pothole ledge.

Longest rap elsewhere in the canyon is the flute rappel, about 120 feet.

Likely lots of snow and ice in there at this date.

Tom

[moab mark]

Tom,

On normal years when is the snow and ice gone?


As far as the first rappel. Anybody have some pictures of the different anchor spots?

Mark

[ratagonia]

Tom,

On normal years when is the snow and ice gone?


As far as the first rappel. Anybody have some pictures of the different anchor spots?

Mark

Normal year? What's a normal year? How about June 1 for snow gone.

The book, page ii, shows the rap down the watercourse.

What, you want it all mapped out for you? Big F Tree is not explicit enough? "At the head", look for the "Big F Tree", tie slings to it, then rig the rope to that. Move the rope after each rappeller. Run the rope over to the 'usual anchor' for the last two people (takes two people to move the rope).

Tom

[Iceaxe]

and then about 190 feet to the big ledge.

That's exactly what my notes say.... except what you have listed as 190' I say is closer to 200'....



From my notes.....

Big Wall Entrance
The first section is a 80-foot rappel
The second section is a 200-foot rappel (we have had 60 meter climbing ropes come up a couple feet short on this section, even after streching. We skip the pothole on the ledge station and go all the way to the canyon floor)

After the Big Wall entrance
The third rappel is 40 feet
The fourth rappel is 30 feet
The fifth rappel is 110 feet

Your Milage May Vary.....

[moab mark]

Tom,

On normal years when is the snow and ice gone?


As far as the first rappel. Anybody have some pictures of the different anchor spots?

Mark

Normal year? What's a normal year? How about June 1 for snow gone.

The book, page ii, shows the rap down the watercourse.

What, you want it all mapped out for you? Big F Tree is not explicit enough? "At the head", look for the "Big F Tree", tie slings to it, then rig the rope to that. Move the rope after each rappeller. Run the rope over to the 'usual anchor' for the last two people (takes two people to move the rope).

Tom

I guess when we get there it will make sense, but why are we not all just rappeling off of the first big F tree? Why are we moving the rope to another anchor?
Mark