TierDrop Friday, April 24, 2009

[french_de]

After finishing up Not-Tierdrop in the morning and waiting for the weather to clear a tad we headed back up the entrance crack, the same one used for Not-Tierdrop and U-turn. Like Not-TierDrop the views are spectacular. Up top you get a great view of the Park.
Thanks to Climb-Utah.com. for the beta.
The Friday morning wind stayed with us thru the afternoon. There was probably once a time in the good old days when the mushroom rock at the top of the first drop could be used to rig a retrievable webbing anchor. There are now so many ropes grooves that even a thick piece of webbing gets jammed no matter how it gets set up. I gave up and rigged a small piece of webbing on the rock up on the ledge to the right LDC. That rig requires a long rope. My 240 footer with a 200 foot pull cord worked well. The second and third rappel is rigged with webbing. I really like the last big rappel. It starts the rappeler out with feet planted against the wall but gradually becomes a free hang.
This canyon is a nice way to spend a half day in Arches NP.

[moab mark]

Nice report, what did you use for an anchor on the first drop of not tierdrop?

Mark

[french_de]

Nice report, what did you use for an anchor on the first drop of not tierdrop?

Mark

We tied a short piece of webbing around the large boulder that is up the right side ledge. (See picture) We tried to rig it retrievable but the webbing kept sticking under the backside. This anchor requires a couple of 60M ropes. I used a 240 foot rope and 200 foot pull cord. I would like to try to downclimb it the next time I am out there.

[moab mark]

We deadman that one and then the last guy uses all the packs we have as deadman and just kind of slides down.I was wondering what you did at not tierdrops first drop someone pulled the bolts?

[french_de]

We deadman that one and then the last guy uses all the packs we have as deadman and just kind of slides down.I was wondering what you did at not tierdrops first drop someone pulled the bolts?

That is a good idea! The trailing packs adds enough friction to slow the last guy down. It is just steep enough in that one section where one needs a little help.

At Not-TeirDrop we set up a 150 foot temporary web anchor tied to a tree on the backside of the Swiss cheese wall. (see pic). I made it long enough so the rap ring would be plenty over the edge so that a rope pull would leave no grooves. Since we were doing Not-TeirDrop in the morning and Tierdrop in the afternoon, on our way over to TierDrop, I removed the first temporaty anchor I had set up earlier.

[moab mark]

I was going to ask you why you didn't do u turn but I see that you did it also. Climbing up that chute 3 times in one day impressive. I agree also u turn is the best.

On the not tierdrop first drop why does someone feel they have the right to pull the bolts? They have made that one pretty much undoable. If your webbing to the tree was 150' and you wanted to retrieve it that would take 300'. I just do not get it.

Whoever is pulling the bolts will probably pull the ones at the end of lomatium and then you would really be screwed. Or yank the pitons out on krill. Someone needs to get a clue.

If you do U turn again right before you drop into the mouth climb up on that slickrock dome to your right and check out how old those pitons are that are driven into the edge there. Someone has been playing there since probably before I was born.

Looks like you had a great trip. If you haven't done rock of ages I would recommend it.
Mark

[french_de]

I agree also u turn is the best. Mark

And U-Turn doesn't need bolts. There are so many natural anchor opportunities.

On the not tierdrop first drop why does someone feel they have the right to pull the bolts? They have made that one pretty much undoable. If your webbing to the tree was 150' and you wanted to retrieve it that would take 300'. I just do not get it. Mark

Maybe that is part of the challenge and intrigue, to keep it natural. It isn't that hard to ghost that canyon.

IWhoever is pulling the bolts will probably pull the ones at the end of lomatium and then you would really be screwed. Or yank the pitons out on krill. Someone needs to get a clue.

If you do U turn again right before you drop into the mouth climb up on that slickrock dome to your right and check out how old those pitons are that are driven into the edge there. Someone has been playing there since probably before I was born.

Looks like you had a great trip. If you haven't done rock of ages I would recommend it.
Mark

Yes, I really would like to do more these canyons. Lomatium, Krill and Rock of ages are on my list.

[moab mark]

Yea it's easy to ghost if you have 300 freakin ft. of webbing with you.
The bolts in u turn do not make any sense theres rocks all over the place.

[Iceaxe]

The bolts in u turn do not make any sense theres rocks all over the place.

I believe the bolts were installed by one of the local guide companies.... When we first did U-Turn the bolts were all cleverly hidden under strategically placed rocks. And considering the fact that the bolts are industrial strength and properly installed in such easy to rig locations certainly points to professional guiding... if the bolts were installed by noobs the placement location and install work would both be of poor quality. Whomever installed those bombproof bolts knew what they were doing.

[ratagonia]

On the not tierdrop first drop why does someone feel they have the right to pull the bolts?

Because they do? People have the right to place bolts, and people have the right to remove them. Moab I consider outside my zone of influence, but I encourage people to remove un-useful bolts as a general rule.

Whoever is pulling the bolts will probably pull the ones at the end of lomatium and then you would really be screwed. Or yank the pitons out on krill. Someone needs to get a clue.

You mean, the human-placed artifacts in the Wilderness might not be there next time you are? C'mon Mark, surely you don't consider these anchors 'sacred'? Surely - you know either how to get anchors when you need to (and consistently bring the tools (such as webbing) to do so), and surely you realize that forces natural or human might remove the expected anchors at any time? Perhaps you should consider a different sport if you are crippled by actually having to deal with the natural world unassisted by (certain) technologies? Shuffleboard???




OK, that was too harsh. Sorry Mark. But, really, the bolts could disappear at any time, and we all should be ready to complete our descents with the "fixed" anchors un-fixed.

Tom

[moab mark]

On the not tierdrop first drop why does someone feel they have the right to pull the bolts?

Because they do? People have the right to place bolts, and people have the right to remove them. Moab I consider outside my zone of influence, but I encourage people to remove un-useful bolts as a general rule.

Whoever is pulling the bolts will probably pull the ones at the end of lomatium and then you would really be screwed. Or yank the pitons out on krill. Someone needs to get a clue.

You mean, the human-placed artifacts in the Wilderness might not be there next time you are? C'mon Mark, surely you don't consider these anchors 'sacred'? Surely - you know either how to get anchors when you need to (and consistently bring the tools (such as webbing) to do so), and surely you realize that forces natural or human might remove the expected anchors at any time? Perhaps you should consider a different sport if you are crippled by actually having to deal with the natural world unassisted by (certain) technologies? Shuffleboard???




OK, that was too harsh. Sorry Mark. But, really, the bolts could disappear at any time, and we all should be ready to complete our descents with the "fixed" anchors un-fixed.

Tom

I know another bolt arguement. Under Tom's scenerio, at the top of not tierdrop we are either going to have to go scavanging rocks from all over in that beautiful crypo soil at the start or haul 300' of webbing. Honestly how many canyoneers are hauling 300 ft of webbing?

The more I have been doing this I am starting to lean towards natural anchors if they are big and not a pile of rocks. But I am not risking my kids or other lives on stacking up a bunch of rocks. Some may feel comfortable with this I do not. I also feel when we are out scavanging around for big rocks we are doing more damage then it's worth. But when all common sense says the anchors are serving a reasonable purpose just pulling them to make a statement is lame.
Matt in moab probably goes out of his way more then anyone to use natural anchors etc. But if someone pulled the anchors at the end of lomatium he would replace them only because he has no other choice there. I would like to see the experts build an anchor there with out bolts. . Yes not tierdrop is a small little canyon in moab but it's the point.
The ones placed in u turn, when the average canyoneer looks at it and goes, look at all these big boulders why. But then if you step back and go a whole lot of webbing is going to have to be left here if we sling these maybe a couple of well hidden bolts are better. The shapes of those big rocks would make it hard to ghost them.

Just my two cents
Mark
I prefer Chess over shuffleboard.

[tanya]

Wonderful photos as usual! Good trip report!

[moabmatt]

I believe the bolts were installed by one of the local guide companies.... When we first did U-Turn the bolts were all cleverly hidden under strategically placed rocks. And considering the fact that the bolts are industrial strength and properly installed in such easy to rig locations certainly points to professional guiding...

We're the only ones guiding there (the only ones allowed to, anyway) and we didn't place them. The row of four bolts in U-Turn were placed by the Park Service in '98. I have no idea why. For practice, maybe? At the same time they placed the bolt/piton stations on the fin above U-Turn's entrance. This was for high-angle rescue training, but they only used that site for one year. Now they train on the bench just above the Moab Fault turnout. I went down U-Turn long ago with my girlfriend and at the time there wasn't that bolt at the first little drop. I don't know who placed that or when.

I don't know who chopped Not Tierdrop. Not me.

[moab mark]

At the same time they placed the bolt/piton stations on the fin above U-Turn's entrance. This was for high-angle rescue training, but they only used that site for one year. Now they train on the bench just above the Moab Fault turnout.
I don't know who chopped Not Tierdrop. Not me.

Matt,
That suprises me that those pitons on the edge of u turn are only 10 years old? They look like they have been there forever but 10 years out in the weather probably wears on them. How long have the pitons been in krill and did you place those?

Talking about pitons if something is going to be placed is the canyoneering community more comfortable with bolts or pitons? Those pitons in krill seem like they would hold a truck. But the ones installed at the end of Rock of Ages are suspect to me. Obviously it's how well each are set but if set well bolts or pitons?

Seems like to a novice the hole doesn't need to be as exact when driving a piton?

Mark

[ratagonia]

At the same time they placed the bolt/piton stations on the fin above U-Turn's entrance. This was for high-angle rescue training, but they only used that site for one year. Now they train on the bench just above the Moab Fault turnout.
I don't know who chopped Not Tierdrop. Not me.

Matt,
That suprises me that those pitons on the edge of u turn are only 10 years old? They look like they have been there forever but 10 years out in the weather probably wears on them. How long have the pitons been in krill and did you place those?

Talking about pitons if something is going to be placed is the canyoneering community more comfortable with bolts or pitons? Those pitons in krill seem like they would hold a truck. But the ones installed at the end of Rock of Ages are suspect to me. Obviously it's how well each are set but if set well bolts or pitons?

Seems like to a novice the hole doesn't need to be as exact when driving a piton?

Mark

In soft rock, without glue, drilled angles work their way loose fairly quickly. If the rock is better than average, they can work pretty well.

Very hard to judge without a hammer. And if you hit them with a hammer, then you break the placement, and must re-place them, which might require drilling the hole deeper.

Well placed bolts will generally last longer. Poorly placed bolts --- hard to say - Look OUT!!!

[moabmatt]

How long have the pitons been in krill and did you place those? Mark

The drilled angles in Krill were placed by a couple local climbers in the late 80's.