Relative Newbies - Zion in July

[sarahlizzy]

Hi everyone.

I'm going to be part of a group of six women, variously from the UK and California spending a week in Zion in July. We're looking to do some technical canyoneering, and all have different experience levels.

A couple of us, myself included, have been to Zion several times before, most recently last year. However, in all visits previous to last year, we'd not done anything more advanced than hiking Angels Landing, the Subway bottom-up, and messing about with handlines and such in Hidden Canyon. Last year we wanted to broaden our horizons a bit and got some instruction from Zion Rock and Mountain, and then went through The Subway, top-down.

Four of us from tat trip will be on this trip too. The other two have never done any canyoneering at all, but have some climbing experience. All six of us have some rappelling experience, and in particular, those of us in the UK have been increasingly finding spare weekends to go and get some rappelling practice, so we're reasonably comfortable setting up rappels, anchors, safety tethers, and so on (the picture is me from two weekends ago).

For this year's trip, we plan to start off with The Subway (assuming we get the lottery tickets - competition seems fierce!), then perhaps spread Keyhole and Echo Canyons out over the next few days, as they seem to be nice starter canyons, and hopefully finish the week with Pine Creek.

Does this sound like a sensible itinerary given our experience levels? I realise that theoretical knowledge and rappelling outside canyon environments is no substitute for experience in canyons. The four of us who did The Subway last time found it pretty straightforward (although we were kinda shocked by the group of teenagers doing it just behind us who had no equipment beyond a single strand of webbing - the consensus seemed to be that they were lucky to get out without at least one broken ankle), and I feel pretty confident about The Subway again, as well as Keyhole and Echo. That last rap in Pine Creek is something I'm a bit apprehensive about though, as while some of us have done some short overhanging raps (and are planning to get some more experience here in the UK from a handy disused rail viaduct that's a popular rappelling spot, and gives us the height and the overhang), this one is still a bit daunting!

Would appreciate any thoughts, even if they're, "You're all completely insane and are probably going to die!"

[DiscGo]

Hi. Welcome to the site! I am probably the least qualified to answer but that itinerary sounds pretty reasonable, depending on how well you actually know what you are doing. Pinecreek has a long rappel at the end (100 feet), meaning you'd have to have a fairly long rope, and if any of you struggle with heights there not really much of a way out except for rappelling down or life-lining out. It sounds like you are probably one of the Californians of your group? If you can make it, you should come to BogleyFest on the last weekend of June and check the canyons out with some more experienced guides and then at least one of you will be familiar with the area (unless you are doing your trip earlier than July).

http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15843

[Sombeech]

Welcome to Bogley! What part of the UK is your group from?

[jman]

Smart women, you've done some good research thus far...anyway, those are mostly the best "beginner" routes with beginner leadership.

Subway can be done without any technical gear - I've done it. But its best on your part to bring a 50ft hand rope (more used as a handline). From the picture, I ASSume you are pretty confident in rappelling and leading the group - so definitely the Subway is probably the best route/canyon for a canyooneer noob. It tests their attitute towards canyoneering, its a semi-long hike (so tests their endurance), and needs good leadership overcoming the obstacles (which your friends can hopefully do - if they can't do this one, I would skip Pinecreek).

Keyhole can be completed in under 3hours (even for beginners as Shane/Iceaxe would say commonsense is your "most powerful weapon" in canyoneering). Keyhole has some cold water so be prepared for it. This one is a piece of cake and will probably be a favorite of the group - cause its a short hike in and out, but yet packed with a goodies - especially my favorite the "flooded hallway".

Echo is just like Keyhole but as a longer approach and has more obstacles and just as fun, and more cold than Keyhole.

Pinecreek is a personal favorite. Goodsize rappels, lots of water, short approach and just long enough to make it have repeated value. Plus, at the bottom there is a fun 10ft swimhole to mess around in. I would save this for last - due to the more challenging and higher rappels, but if you can complete the aforementioned, you'll do just fine.

Just dress very warm, bring wetsuits, and get accurate beta for your routes, have confidence in your knot tying skills, and a good attitude and you'll be just fine.

[sarahlizzy]

Thanks for the responses, everyone:

Pinecreek has a long rappel at the end (100 feet), meaning you'd have to have a fairly long rope, and if any of you struggle with heights there not really much of a way out except for rappelling down or life-lining out. It sounds like you are probably one of the Californians of your group? If you can make it, you should come to BogleyFest on the last weekend of June and check the canyons out with some more experienced guides and then at least one of you will be familiar with the area

I'm one of the UK contingent, and sadly we'll not be landing in the US until after BogleyFest, otherwise that would probably have been really useful.

I am nervous with heights, but they don't paralyse me. I've bene up and down Angels' Landing a few times and am happy doing it without holding the chains. I appreciate that the last rap in Pine Creek has an airy anchor, and until I'm attached to it with a tether I'll probably be quite uncomfortable. I figure for that, we'll send one of the climbers out to the anchor first. Once I'm attached to the anchor and/or on belay I'll likely be perfectly fine. There's another of our group who also gets nervous - that's part of why we plan to do the other stuff first (and we'll be hiking Angels Landing on one of the days we're not canyoneering), and check we can all handle the heights and exposure.

From the picture, I ASSume you are pretty confident in rappelling and leading the group - so definitely the Subway is probably the best route/canyon for a canyooneer noob. It tests their attitute towards canyoneering, its a semi-long hike (so tests their endurance), and needs good leadership overcoming the obstacles (which your friends can hopefully do - if they can't do this one, I would skip Pinecreek).

This was pretty much exactly my thought process, and it's nice to have some confirmation that I'm not completely out in left field. The four of us who did The Subway last year did it by rappelling the trickier bits, mostly because we figured it was prudent. We'll plan on doing that again this year, and see how the two who haven't been in a canyon before handle that. If they're OK, we'll check out how we do with Keyhole and Echo, and then see if everyone is comfortable with the idea of Pine Creek. That's why we're saving it until last.

We'll all be equipped with wetsuits, and each have our own harnesses, helmets, safety tethers, biners, etc.

Welcome to Bogley! What part of the UK is your group from?

Cambridgeshire, in eastern England, which is about as far from canyoneering country as you can get - our rivers take ten miles to descent eighteen inches, although England being the size it is, we're only 3 hours drive from a national park with plenty of nice opportunities for practising rappelling skills.

Anyway, thanks once again everyone, for the kind welcome.

Sarah

[zoeimogen]

From the picture, I ASSume you are pretty confident in rappelling and leading the group - so definitely the Subway is probably the best route/canyon for a canyooneer noob. It tests their attitute towards canyoneering, its a semi-long hike (so tests their endurance), and needs good leadership overcoming the obstacles (which your friends can hopefully do - if they can't do this one, I would skip Pinecreek).

This was pretty much exactly my thought process, and it's nice to have some confirmation that I'm not completely out in left field. The four of us who did The Subway last year did it by rappelling the trickier bits, mostly because we figured it was prudent. We'll plan on doing that again this year, and see how the two who haven't been in a canyon before handle that. If they're OK, we'll check out how we do with Keyhole and Echo, and then see if everyone is comfortable with the idea of Pine Creek. That's why we're saving it until last.

I think you're playing down our experience a fair bit, of the two people who didn't do Subway with us, at least one goes climbing regularly which is bound to be a help! (I don't know how much outdoors stuff she's done though)

[SLCmntjunkie]

I appreciate that the last rap in Pine Creek has an airy anchor, and until I'm attached to it with a tether I'll probably be quite uncomfortable. I figure for that, we'll send one of the climbers out to the anchor first. Once I'm attached to the anchor and/or on belay I'll likely be perfectly fine.

On that last rappel there is a small arch about 5' back from the edge. You can wrap a sling around that to protect everyone until they are on rappel. Pine Creek is really pretty easy, that last rappel can be a bit scary for some though.

[sarahlizzy]

On that last rappel there is a small arch about 5' back from the edge. You can wrap a sling around that to protect everyone until they are on rappel. Pine Creek is really pretty easy, that last rappel can be a bit scary for some though.

That sounds absolutely perfect!

[ratagonia]

Thanks for the responses, everyone:

I am nervous with heights, but they don't paralyse me. I've bene up and down Angels' Landing a few times and am happy doing it without holding the chains. I appreciate that the last rap in Pine Creek has an airy anchor, and until I'm attached to it with a tether I'll probably be quite uncomfortable. I figure for that, we'll send one of the climbers out to the anchor first.

Welcome to the group, Sarah and Zoe.

At the last rap, there is a small arch about 5 feet back from the exposed anchor. Set up slings on that for your safety leash, THEN set the rope up on the exposed final anchor.

It's just the start which is scary!!!

While doing the Subway without equipment CAN be done, only the young and indestructible would suggest this for other people. Yes, SOME people get away with it.

Consider doing the Russell Gulch variation, which has 3 rappels of almost 100 feet, and is quite lovely. It'll give you some more experience with longish raps, and the last one overhangs. And its FUN!

Both Keyhole and Echo are quite short. Depending on when you can get a Subway permit, you might want to do one of these first to get the cobwebs out. Keyhole is 1-2 hours car to car. The approach is 1/4 mile or less (maybe 1/4 km). So to say Echo has a "longer approach", while true, is a bit of a jest. Echo is 3-6 hours, but most of that is hiking - the rappel section is quite short.

Have a great trip.

Tom

[zoeimogen]

Consider doing the Russell Gulch variation, which has 3 rappels of almost 100 feet, and is quite lovely. It'll give you some more experience with longish raps, and the last one overhangs. And its FUN!

Is Russell Gulch the route where you rappel into the start of the Subway itself? I think we saw some people doing that last time and personally I'd like to try it - I'm not sure all members of our party would be OK starting with multiple 100' rappels though.

[ratagonia]

Consider doing the Russell Gulch variation, which has 3 rappels of almost 100 feet, and is quite lovely. It'll give you some more experience with longish raps, and the last one overhangs. And its FUN!

Is Russell Gulch the route where you rappel into the start of the Subway itself? I think we saw some people doing that last time and personally I'd like to try it - I'm not sure all members of our party would be OK starting with multiple 100' rappels though.

A good reason to go do the Keyhole first! (if the schedule works out). The rappels are not easy, but not really all that hard either. An appropriate level of challenge.

T

[sarahlizzy]

At the last rap, there is a small arch about 5 feet back from the exposed anchor. Set up slings on that for your safety leash, THEN set the rope up on the exposed final anchor.

It's just the start which is scary!!!

Perfect! Thanks :-)

While doing the Subway without equipment CAN be done, only the young and indestructible would suggest this for other people. Yes, SOME people get away with it.

Consider doing the Russell Gulch variation, which has 3 rappels of almost 100 feet, and is quite lovely. It'll give you some more experience with longish raps, and the last one overhangs. And its FUN!

I fear none of us are young and indestructible!

The Russell Gulch entrance is something a few of us would certainly be keen on doing, but we haven't been able to find any notes describing the route, other than telling one to head down the drainage rather than cross it on the approach, so I'm a bit nervous about ending up in the wrong place.

Both Keyhole and Echo are quite short. Depending on when you can get a Subway permit, you might want to do one of these first to get the cobwebs out. Keyhole is 1-2 hours car to car. The approach is 1/4 mile or less (maybe 1/4 km). So to say Echo has a "longer approach", while true, is a bit of a jest. Echo is 3-6 hours, but most of that is hiking - the rappel section is quite short.

We're arriving the evening of the 30th of June so 1st of July will be our first full day in Zion. Have put the 2nd in as our first Subway choice, so if we get that doing another canyon on the 1st is a distinct possibility. There are reasons some of our group are keen on doing the Subway first though (mainly because we figure it's less claustrophobic than Keyhole and Echo and the water is probably less cold - is that a fair assessment?)

Have a great trip.

Thank you, Tom!

Sarah

[ratagonia]

Smart women, you've done some good research thus far...anyway, those are mostly the best "beginner" routes with beginner leadership.

I thought she was a smart woman, for including an attractive picture of herself, and allowing an opportunity for a swarm of valiant knights wanting to answer her questions to form...

Tom

[sarahlizzy]

Smart women, you've done some good research thus far...anyway, those are mostly the best "beginner" routes with beginner leadership.

I thought she was a smart woman, for including an attractive picture of herself, and allowing an opportunity for a swarm of valiant knights wanting to answer her questions to form...

Tom

Damn, busted! :D

[Brian in SLC]

I thought she was a smart woman, for including an attractive picture of herself, and allowing an opportunity for a swarm of valiant knights wanting to answer her questions to form...

Wait, there was a person in that picture?

Hey, that looks like gritstone. Is it from the Peak District??

-Brian in SLC (who has yet to visit "the peak")

[Jaxx]

We're arriving the evening of the 30th of June so 1st of July will be our first full day in Zion. Have put the 2nd in as our first Subway choice, so if we get that doing another canyon on the 1st is a distinct possibility. There are reasons some of our group are keen on doing the Subway first though (mainly because we figure it's less claustrophobic than Keyhole and Echo and the water is probably less cold - is that a fair assessment?)
Sarah

That is going to be a super busy time in Zion due to our celebration of July 4th (Independence day). Everyone will have work off. You may want to rethink that date. I would also put in a couple of days in for the lottery. That way you help your chances. Have all 6 of you put in for the lottery.

I wouldn't think doing keyhole first would create any problems. You may want to take a wetsuit to stay warm. My wife always does but I never do. I am of course about twice her size. So I have a built in wetsuit.

You could always do Keyhole a 2 or 3 times just for fun. It will give you practice in the cold water and rappelling. You can warm up after each time doing the steep hot hike back to the start. The slickrock approach faces south so it gets hot during the day. It is very short though.

Even if doing keyhole multiple times I would have some other hikes planned that day. Keyhole is very short. We usually do it the night we get down there with headlamps. I wouldn't suggest it for your first time through though. It is a beautiful slot and you can't see that in the dark.

[ratagonia]

While doing the Subway without equipment CAN be done, only the young and indestructible would suggest this for other people. Yes, SOME people get away with it.

Consider doing the Russell Gulch variation, which has 3 rappels of almost 100 feet, and is quite lovely. It'll give you some more experience with longish raps, and the last one overhangs. And its FUN!

I fear none of us are young and indestructible!

The Russell Gulch entrance is something a few of us would certainly be keen on doing, but we haven't been able to find any notes describing the route, other than telling one to head down the drainage rather than cross it on the approach, so I'm a bit nervous about ending up in the wrong place.

Ask, and ye shall receive...

We're arriving the evening of the 30th of June so 1st of July will be our first full day in Zion. Have put the 2nd in as our first Subway choice, so if we get that doing another canyon on the 1st is a distinct possibility. There are reasons some of our group are keen on doing the Subway first though (mainly because we figure it's less claustrophobic than Keyhole and Echo and the water is probably less cold - is that a fair assessment?)

Sarah

It is a fair assessment, but few find Keyhole and Echo claustrophobic. Cold - certainly can be.

But Subway is a long day, with a lot of hiking in the heat at the end. If you're coming direct from the UK, you'll need a few days for your body to get used to the time schedule, the heat and the very dry air. Sounds like you've put a couple days in there for that.

Tom

[sarahlizzy]

Hey, that looks like gritstone. Is it from the Peak District??

-Brian in SLC (who has yet to visit "the peak")

It's granite (great stuff for ripping elbows to shreds - ouch!) - Hay Tor on Dartmoor:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hay_Tor

Although I did grow up near the Peak District, and am hoping to go there this weekend (for some rappelling, what else?) :-)

[ratagonia]

I thought she was a smart woman, for including an attractive picture of herself, and allowing an opportunity for a swarm of valiant knights wanting to answer her questions to form...

Tom

Damn, busted! :D

Even transparent, it still works ...

T

[sarahlizzy]

The Russell Gulch entrance is something a few of us would certainly be keen on doing, but we haven't been able to find any notes describing the route, other than telling one to head down the drainage rather than cross it on the approach, so I'm a bit nervous about ending up in the wrong place.

Ask, and ye shall receive...

If you're willing to provide, I would be most grateful for such :-)