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Thread: Ascending a Rope?

  1. #1

    Ascending a Rope?

    I am just winging this so maybe I am nuts, have been before but. By having a setup with an ascender on the rope, arms length sling from ascender to harness. Rope coming down going through a grigri attached to harness and then up to a pulley on the ascender and then down to the ground. Ok if that made sense, then could someone on the ground pull down on the rope and raise the climber, with the climber only having to move the ascender up when the grigri hits the pulley? The ascender would get harder to move up as you went due to the weight of the rope going through the pulley but would it work? With the mechanical advantage how slow would it be.

    My reasoning is if you had to ascend a rope with kids for an example could you run them up the rope? If yes could you tie a pull cord to the ascender and have someone on top help move the ascender up each time if the kid could not do it?

    Probably nuts? Or is there some other way to ascend a kid up a rope?

    Mark

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  4. #2
    If I'm seeing this right, you couldn't raise the ascender once weight is on the pulley.

    You could add a second ascender, one to secure the person on the rope and the second as a change of direction with the pulley. But you would only get a 2:1 mechanical advantage and about 2ft each time you need to reset you're system, even less if it was a kid with short arms. It doesn't sound very efficient, you'd be better off setting up a a haul system from the top.

  5. #3
    The ascender would be able to go up because the grigri would be grabbing the rope. So when you moved the ascender the pulley would pull up slack rope. and let you move it up the rope. Here is the website I saw it on.
    would of posted site first time but had lost it.

    http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/Jug.htm

  6. #4
    OK, I see. Still doesn't sound very efficient as a haul system.

  7. #5
    sounds woefully inefficent. would be far easier for someone on top to set up a z-pulley and just haul them up. you are going to need someone on top anyway when the kids get there. for ideas on how to set up the haul system find a book on either big wall techniques or glacier travel techniques. both areas require knowledge of setting up haul systems.

    or just teach them how to jug.
    But if I agreed with you, we would both be wrong.

  8. #6
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moab mark
    The ascender would be able to go up because the grigri would be grabbing the rope. So when you moved the ascender the pulley would pull up slack rope. and let you move it up the rope. Here is the website I saw it on.
    would of posted site first time but had lost it.

    http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/Jug.htm
    An interesting approach. The key element here is the foot loop.

    The sequence for this setup is:

    A. Move ascender up to full extension of arm.

    B. Standup in the foot loop attached to the ascender while pulling rope through the pulley (which moves the gri-gri (progress capture device) up the rope).

    C. Lean back on the Gri Gri.

    D. Repeat Ad Nauseum.

    If you want to pull the kids up the cliff, you could set up a 2:1 as follows:

    1. Anchor top of rope at the top.

    2. Rope goes down to the ground to a pulley. Clip the Kid into the pulley.

    3. Rope goes back up to the top, to a pulley.

    4. Then back down to the ground.

    5. you pull on the rope, you have a 2:1 advantage and can pull the kid up the cliff. You might want a belay on there. Can use a progress capture device somewhere in the system (but all positions have some disadvantage, depending).

    6. The kid can help by pulling up on the fixed strand.

    It might be more elegant to set up a fixed strand, then have a separate belay rope. The kid can then kinda climb the rope, maybe with some help from Dad.

    Tom

  9. #7
    Mark's approach might not be very efficient, but it is some advantages over Tom's 2:1 and gets the kids involved with their own ascending.

    For Mark's solution ...

    1. Rope required is height of ascent + enough extra rope to create the Z (about four extra feet).

    2. Entire setup can be rigged on the ground.

    Tom's solution requires rope length that is height of ascent X 3 and requires someone at the top to set rope through upper pulley and send rope back down if process is to be repeated for more people.
    Rich Carlson, Instructor
    YouTube Channel: CanyonsCrags

  10. #8
    [quote="rcwild"]Mark's approach might not be very efficient, but it is some advantages over Tom's 2:1 and gets the kids involved with their own ascending.

    For Mark's solution ...

    1. Rope required is height of ascent + enough extra rope to create the Z (about four extra feet).

    2. Entire setup can be rigged on the ground.

    The only time I have seen a z rig used I would not consider it very efficient. But maybe these guys didn't know what they were doing. But how do you rig a z rig on the ground with only only ascending rope?

  11. #9
    ok misunderstood your answer i thought you meant doing it some other way then my original post.

  12. #10
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    Mark
    Theres lots of ways to overcome having a kid(scout in your case) stuck on a rope with you "below" him. The most important point is to make sure one of your most experienced people always goes down last. That person should be proficient in haul systems, lowers, pick-offs etc. As long as that guy, we'll call him LAMAR stays up top with enough extra rope for a "just in case" event, you have lots of options. Trying to perform a rescue from below is definately do-able, albeit considerably more complex.
    I've done several trips with scout's and you definately need good leaders both at the bottom and top to assist the boys. Once again--the guy up top needs to have lot's of skills. Never let a scout go last.

  13. #11
    Was just explaining it to my 8 year old and he's game. In a couple of weeks when back in moab ill give it a try.

  14. #12
    No this is not a rescue this is if you have all rappeled down a rope and then decide you want to go back up. Have one adult go up and then send kids. Yes there are probably lots of better ways but i saw that setup online and thought couldn't you just pull down on the rope and with them moving up the ascender up up they would go. As rich stated this lets the dad do most of the work but the kid thinks he is helping.

  15. #13
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moab mark
    No this is not a rescue this is if you have all rappeled down a rope and then decide you want to go back up. Have one adult go up and then send kids. Yes there are probably lots of better ways but i saw that setup online and thought couldn't you just pull down on the rope and with them moving up the ascender up up they would go. As rich stated this lets the dad do most of the work but the kid thinks he is helping.
    Your having to use a lot of gear that likely wouldn't be carried in a canyon situation. Why not just teach the boys the right way to ascend so they have the skill for later down the road. I've seen 10-12 year old boys that could out jug most guys, and have a great time doing it.
    for safety the guy up top could put them on a belay, you'll be suprised how little help these guys will need

  16. #14
    Do not disagree as I stated before just saw the site and thought what if.

  17. #15
    Giving this some more thought. If the jugger is a heavy guy and cannot jug the rope on his own wouldn't him standing up in the foot loop along with a guy pulling on the rope help him quite a bit?

  18. #16
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moab mark
    Giving this some more thought. If the jugger is a heavy guy and cannot jug the rope on his own wouldn't him standing up in the foot loop along with a guy pulling on the rope help him quite a bit?
    Absolutely--good point
    You can also use a ropeman instead of a Gri-Gri, or a Tib-loc in self minding mode/

  19. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by oldno7
    Quote Originally Posted by moab mark
    Giving this some more thought. If the jugger is a heavy guy and cannot jug the rope on his own wouldn't him standing up in the foot loop along with a guy pulling on the rope help him quite a bit?
    Absolutely--good point
    You can also use a ropeman instead of a Gri-Gri, or a Tib-loc in self minding mode/
    I jug with a Gri Gri all the time (its my standard "big wall" seconding technique).

    There's a huge advantage with the Gri Gri as the bottom capture type device in that you can convert to rappel with it very, very easily.

    If the "heavy guy" can stand up, he can certainly pull the rope through a pulley and wouldn't really need any assist from below.

    I've also replaced a Gri Gri with a Petzl Mini Traxion for jugging too. Its so efficient, with a pulley on top (at the upper ascender) and bottom, that I could ascend a flat wall without the foot loops by just pulling myself along with the "bottom" of the rope coming down from the upper pulley. Crazy.

    Can't imagine the risk, and, you'd want to have a back up, but, my bet is you could haul someone from the ground, up to an anchor, by using a 3:1 Yosemite style haul (aka "Spanish Rig") which would require two pulleys and two ascenders. You could add a pulley at the top and rig a more standard 3:1 too.

    Crevasse rescue technique shows how to rig a "Z by C" haul, which is 6 to one, but, not sure how this would work over a really long distance.

    Bo should chime in. He's the friggin' in the riggin' master.

    I dunno. With ropes going over edges and all that mechanical hardware in play, you don't need much to go wrong to have it go "seriously" wrong.

    Easiest would be to just use a "drop loop" and send the guy a loop of rope with a pulley on it, and have the horse power at the top just pull them up off that. Good anchoring skills a must! And, a completely separate belay for the dead weight person would be prudent.

    I've practised a partner haul on a climb with a Tibloc. Never again (ruined my rope).

    Interesting...

    -Brian in SLC

  20. #18
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moab mark
    No this is not a rescue this is if you have all rappeled down a rope and then decide you want to go back up. Have one adult go up and then send kids. Yes there are probably lots of better ways but i saw that setup online and thought couldn't you just pull down on the rope and with them moving up the ascender up up they would go. As rich stated this lets the dad do most of the work but the kid thinks he is helping.
    I guess I miss-understood your original question - which I thought was - "If I just pull down on the rope, doesn't the kid get to the top?". The answer to that is NO, the kid has to move the ascender up every stroke, which you had apparently already figured out.

    This system Can work, or it can be a problem. Depends upon the geometry somewhat.

    I've tried the pulley redirect off the upper jug, and was unimpressed. Hard to explain fully, but my conclusion was adding more complexity adds more friction and more confusion.

    Tom

  21. #19
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldno7
    Quote Originally Posted by moab mark
    Giving this some more thought. If the jugger is a heavy guy and cannot jug the rope on his own wouldn't him standing up in the foot loop along with a guy pulling on the rope help him quite a bit?
    Absolutely--good point
    You can also use a ropeman instead of a Gri-Gri, or a Tib-loc in self minding mode/
    YES.

    It is a coordination problem to stand up and pull the rope through the Gri-gri. I have watched Ram try this many, many times, and it is apparently a DIFFICULT coordination problem. So having the heavy guy's only task to be to stand up (while someone on the ground snugs up the GriGri) could be a good strategy. Adding a second foot loop to get both feet in there could be helpful too.

    A Tibloc or a Ropeman requires some fiddling to keep it working. If you have a Gri-gri, it would be a better tool for this. Could also use a Basic, or a handled Ascender, but it requires a low-biner redirect and might end up being fiddly also.

    Tom

  22. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia
    A Tibloc or a Ropeman requires some fiddling to keep it working.
    Tibloc requires fiddling. Ropeman doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia
    If you have a Gri-gri, it would be a better tool for this. Could also use a Basic, or a handled Ascender, but it requires a low-biner redirect and might end up being fiddly also.
    GriGri, Ropeman, Mini Traxion are all good tools for the harness position.

    Basic or handled ascender in the harness position?
    Rich Carlson, Instructor
    YouTube Channel: CanyonsCrags

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