Guide needed for Zions Area Canyoneering

[ScottO]

Hey Guys, I will be bringing a group of (7) 16-18 year old boys to the Zions area in July. I would like to spend one day doing some adventurous canyoneering that may require rappelling/swimming etc. Does anybody know of any independent people that might be interested in showing us around for 1 day? The whole group is very physically fit and has some experience in rappelling. We could rent all of the necessary gear from a local climbing shop or in SLC before we head South.

Like all scouting trips, our budget is sort of tight. But, we definitely have some funds and hope to share some fun experiences with somebody who has a passion for the area.

Thanks!

[moab mark]

ScottO,

Several canyons that work great for scout type activities are orderville and subway. I have been taking our scout troop to Zion now for about 5 years. We do Orderville one day float the river in tubes the middle day and then do subway the next. In the terms of technical these canyons are pretty straight forward. You can hand line down all the obstacles. There are several websites that can give you beta on these canyons.
Climb-Utah.com and Canyoneeringusa.com. You need permits to do these canyons.
There are many more technical canyons but those are two great starters. Be careful if you move up to the more techincal canyons unless you come up with qualified leadership. Boy Scouts of America has rules and regulations on rappelling etc.

As far as guides. Guide companies are not allowed to guide inside the park. They have several places outside the park they can take you but it is usually cost prohibitive.

Mark

[ScottO]

Hey Mark,

Thanks for your advise. I realized after reading your reply that I was probably too closed minded or specific in asking my question concerning guides.

We plan to go to the Zions area for 5 days - 4 nights. Since you have led several groups through the area, can you give me a sample itinerary that you think would keep them interested? We are lucky that all of the boys and leaders are fit, and the boys are 16-18.

Nobody in the group - including the leaders - have ever been to Zions.

We are planning to go in July. Do I have any hope of getting permits or camp sites?

Thanks again! Scott

[Cirrus2000]

Hey, ScottO, hope you guys have a great time - it's a terrific place, with lots of varied opportunities for fun (and challenging) adventures. But if I may offer one piece of advice: do not call it "Zions" - it is "Zion" without the "s", and it drives folks crazy when people refer to it with the s. As many have said, "Zions is a bank. Zion is a park".

Have a great time in Zion, post your adventures here when you're done - and welcome to Bogley!

[ScottO]

Thanks for the tip! :) Its funny that I was corrected on that since I am the first person to correct somebody when they call it Nordstroms. Thanks for the tip, it won't happen again!

[canyonguru]

Scotto. My name is Aaron and i have been going to zion for the past 10 years as a scout myself and as a leader. I have a awsome guy that has been canyoneering with me as a leader and a partner for those 10 years and he is the one that pushed me to finishing me eagle scout. He is the stake young mens president and he takes very large groups up to red rock here in las vegas for rappelling trips. groups the size or 40 -50. He is very experienced and is my partner now in all of my more difficult canyons. i will talk to him and see if he is interested and i might be able to head up there and help as well.

For some good technical shorter canyons that really take u into tight spots and get a good introduction to canyoneering i would recommend

Pine Creek - for sure a good one
Keyhole- really short and could do them the same day, but awesome.
Echo- Fun slot short rappels. very pretty
Subway- takes all day with big groups but well worth it
Orderville- probably on my only do once canyon. pretty but not technical.

Personaly my very first slot canyon was Mystery but i wouldn't reccomed it just because of your size of group and the dificulty in getting permits. but it is an awesome canyon. The canyon i have done the most is Pine Creek and most of the time we were taking scouts.

Tubing the river would be a great rest day and maybe Angels Landing or Observation point would be a good rest day hike.

Those canyons should keep you pretty much busy for your whole trip. I hope this helped you out. One more thing if you plan on staying in the park you might as well get the golden eagle year parks pass. you will save a lot of money on campsite prices, i think it is half if you have the pass.

[Scott Card]

De ja vu all over again. You sound just like me 10 years ago. I took a group site unseen to Zion and we had fun. That is when I discovered Canyoneering. I saw small groups walking down the Narrows with very large packs and lots of ropes. I started asking questions. It took me two years before I was comfortable with my skills and my other leaders before I started doing "the canyons" in Zion.

I would suggest hooking up with some other leaders and getting some training. The canyons group on yahoo has some leaders in your neck of the woods that are highly trained and who have been doing this stuff for quite some time with young mens groups. Doc Rosen comes to mind as does Jeff Dredge. If you want to hook up with the Mapleton Boys (I am one of them) let us know and we could provide some basics to help out. I know that is a bit of a distance for you or us but the trained boys love to train others and they are looking for leadership opportunities. I am currently scheduled to help out one group from Orem at the end of July who are just beginning this stuff. I tell you that because I know others out there are willing to help the young men with this stuff.

As to the Zion procedures and permits, ask what ever questions you have to this group and I am sure we can collectively help you work through the process and red tape. You may want to ask others since I may have a bit of a reputation with Zion.

As far as campsites, there are several. The commercial campsites in Virgin and Springdale, or the two park sites have all worked for my groups. If you choose to canyoneer, make sure you have the right equipment and proper skill/leaders. Again, ask questions. I became a part of this group back when it was part of Climb-Utah and I also joined the Yahoo group specifically to ask questions and get information. I have met some great people and I have learned a ton. So ask away.

[moab mark]

Scott,
When we take the scouts, these are the 12-13 year olds. We stay in the group sites in watchman. We always go in the first part of june to try and stay away from the monsoon season which seems to start in july and run into august. Flash floods are always a problem in Zion but the later in the summer seems to be worse. To get permits you go to https://zionpermits.nps.gov/backcoun...m?TripTypeID=3 and sign up. Subway is a hard permit to get. They do a lottery and right now the lottery is running for June. Each permit has different limits on how many you can take.

We take a break day and line up Zions Adventure Co for the rental tubes and float the river. They usually give us a pretty good deal if it's scouts. Each night we go down in the dark and swim in the river.

There is alot of info on those websites that I gave you. The first year we went we had no clue other then just researching those canyons and we had a blast. Subway is probably the most impressive hike in the park for getting taste of everything. Orderville is amazing and you get to hike down the narrows on the way out. For both of these you need to work out shuttles.

As I stated before unless you can find qualified leadership stay away from the pinecreeks etc. Yes they have the same ratings as subway and orderville but they are not on the same level.

We use to do a half day service project with the Park Service but the last 2 years they do not seem to want to work with us?

I have no idea how much money you have in your budget, but the second year we hired Zion Adventure. Jonathon the owner worked us a deal for $85 per head and took our scouts out to a place called snake alley and taught them to rappel in a cool little slot canyon. They have several other places they can take you also. This is what got me into canyoneering.

There is not a better scout trip out there. We have not gone to a organized camp in 5 years. When you ask our scouts what do you want to do this year they vote zions.

If you have any other questions let me know. There are many people on this forum more qualified then I am and they can give you info also.
Mark

[moab mark]

Scott,

One other thing, you will see that most of the technical canyons only allow 6 to a permit. This really limits your choices and really gets the Park officials bent out of shape if you combine permits. I will not state how I know this but don't take 14 on two permits down orderville when the park service is removing weeds from the drainage.
You will find out that the permit system leaves alot to be desired. THis is why we end up in orderville and subway, you can take 12.
Mark

[Scott Card]

Scott,
We use to do a half day service project with the Park Service but the last 2 years they do not seem to want to work with us?

Are you kidding? That makes no sense what so ever. There is plenty of trash to pick up, graffitti to scrub out, etc. I would like to hear the explaination for that. New thread?

[Scott Card]

Scott,

One other thing, you will see that most of the technical canyons only allow 6 to a permit. This really limits your choices and really gets the Park officials bent out of shape if you combine permits. I will not state how I know this but don't take 14 on two permits down orderville when the park service is removing weeds from the drainage.
You will find out that the permit system leaves alot to be desired. THis is why we end up in orderville and subway, you can take 12.
Mark

Don't get me started......

[moab mark]

Scott,
We use to do a half day service project with the Park Service but the last 2 years they do not seem to want to work with us?

Are you kidding? That makes no sense what so ever. There is plenty of trash to pick up, graffitti to scrub out, etc. I would like to hear the explaination for that. New thread?

When we did these projects are scouts actually worked. One year they had us dig up stumps from trees it was brutal. But the last time we tried to line one up they stated that "it was more of a headache for the Park Service then what they got out of it"
We were shocked also.

[canyonguru]

I would agree that Subway and Orderville are great canyons but they require no rappels longer then 30ft. We have taken fat kids, skinny kids, woosie kids, and pansy's down pine creek and keyhole with no problems. Sometimes they just need a reality check when they realize the only way out is down. I would say do subway if you can get the permit but if you have competant leader i woudn't hesitate to do Pine creek, Keyhole, and Echo. Check out his link for full trip reports and beta to determine if you are interested.
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/utah/zion/

just scroll down to the canyon names and click the link. I would read them several times before making a choice.

[Scott Card]

Scott,
We use to do a half day service project with the Park Service but the last 2 years they do not seem to want to work with us?

Are you kidding? That makes no sense what so ever. There is plenty of trash to pick up, graffitti to scrub out, etc. I would like to hear the explaination for that. New thread?

When we did these projects are scouts actually worked. One year they had us dig up stumps from trees it was brutal. But the last time we tried to line one up they stated that "it was more of a headache for the Park Service then what they got out of it"
We were shocked also.

Are you kidding me. Free labor is worse than letting the project sit undone. And why are you digging stumps when they don't want you to walk on the wild grasses? What ever happened to decomposition? I will never understand government mentality.

[moab mark]

Scott,
We use to do a half day service project with the Park Service but the last 2 years they do not seem to want to work with us?

Are you kidding? That makes no sense what so ever. There is plenty of trash to pick up, graffitti to scrub out, etc. I would like to hear the explaination for that. New thread?

When we did these projects are scouts actually worked. One year they had us dig up stumps from trees it was brutal. But the last time we tried to line one up they stated that "it was more of a headache for the Park Service then what they got out of it"
We were shocked also.

Are you kidding me. Free labor is worse than letting the project sit undone. And why are you digging stumps when they don't want you to walk on the wild grasses? What ever happened to decomposition? I will never understand government mentality.

So you'll like this part. We were out behind some maint. shed, the grass was half way up your calf, the stumps looked like the trees had been cut down 10 years ago. When we asked the nice female park ranger why we were doing this she said "my boss didn't have any other idea for a project and your leader kept calling him so he just thought this up this morning" go figure. Needless to say we no longer bug them about projects.

Mark

[moab mark]

Scott,
We use to do a half day service project with the Park Service but the last 2 years they do not seem to want to work with us?

Are you kidding? That makes no sense what so ever. There is plenty of trash to pick up, graffitti to scrub out, etc. I would like to hear the explaination for that. New thread?

When we did these projects are scouts actually worked. One year they had us dig up stumps from trees it was brutal. But the last time we tried to line one up they stated that "it was more of a headache for the Park Service then what they got out of it"
We were shocked also.

Are you kidding me. Free labor is worse than letting the project sit undone. And why are you digging stumps when they don't want you to walk on the wild grasses? What ever happened to decomposition? I will never understand government mentality.

So you'll like this part. We were out behind some maint. shed, the grass was half way up your calf, the stumps looked like the trees had been cut down 10 years ago. When we asked the nice female park ranger why we were doing this she said "my boss didn't have any other idea for a project and your leader kept calling him so he just thought this up this morning" go figure. Needless to say we no longer bug them about projects.

Mark

[ratagonia]

Scott,
We use to do a half day service project with the Park Service but the last 2 years they do not seem to want to work with us?

Are you kidding? That makes no sense what so ever. There is plenty of trash to pick up, graffitti to scrub out, etc. I would like to hear the explaination for that. New thread?

When we did these projects are scouts actually worked. One year they had us dig up stumps from trees it was brutal. But the last time we tried to line one up they stated that "it was more of a headache for the Park Service then what they got out of it"
We were shocked also.

Are you kidding me. Free labor is worse than letting the project sit undone. And why are you digging stumps when they don't want you to walk on the wild grasses? What ever happened to decomposition? I will never understand government mentality.

So you'll like this part. We were out behind some maint. shed, the grass was half way up your calf, the stumps looked like the trees had been cut down 10 years ago. When we asked the nice female park ranger why we were doing this she said "my boss didn't have any other idea for a project and your leader kept calling him so he just thought this up this morning" go figure. Needless to say we no longer bug them about projects.

Mark

Yeah, the park does not always have its **** together.

I usually figure out a project we should do, and suggest it. Picking up trash (bring rubber gloves) on the Gateway to the Narrows trail is always good for a 3-4 hour project, and usually in the shade. Do Angel's Landing in the morning, project in the afternoon.

The Group Campsites are really a good deal, but fill up fast. It takes a while on the NPS campsite internet site to get things figured out, but it is really the best place to stay. If you don't know your numbers up front, reserve for 9 (the minimum) and then pay up for the actual total when you get there. Here's the link - work your way to the Watchman Group Sites: http://tinyurl.com/2gf7lv

Tom

[moab mark]

Scott,
Scout pics from snake alley, subway, and orderville. These will give some ideas of what the hikes look like. The park service frowns on tubes in the narrows to.

[Scott Card]

Those are awesome! Lucky kids.

[moab mark]

Instead of the contest "wheres it at" how about, in pic 247 whats out of place for a canyoneering adventure?