Beta wanted

[kuper]

Does anyone have beta on Pleiades Canyon near Moab?
Thanks
Mike

[ratagonia]

Does anyone have beta on Pleiades Canyon near Moab?
Thanks
Mike

For Pleiades Canyon, all the beta you need is available here:
http://www.deserthighlights.com/

It's under one-day adventures. It's really good.

Pleiades Canyon is a day of adventure offered by my friend Matt Moore out of Moab. It is a commercial product, along the lines of "Crest Toothpaste". If you make toothpaste, and even if you use the same formula, smuggled out of the plant, you are still not making "Crest Toothpaste". Someone will find the canyon where Matt takes people for the "Pleiades Canyon adventure" and will probably publish it as Pleiades, but it is not. It is 'some canyon'. It is ONLY "Pleiades" if you pay the piper and go up there with Matt.

This fascination with rooting out Matt's canyons bespeaks of a lack of imagination. Please don't. There are a ton of good canyons published and available. Do those. Or go exploring, and find your own canyons. Wyoming Dave has been rooting out some nice short slots down in north wash and immediately publishing them - appreciate his efforts. Rooting out the location of Matt's adventures is TAWDRY. And WRONG.

Of the many canyons out there, only a very few make for good guide-service canyons. They are usually fairly poor for individuals, usually because they are too short for experienced canyoneers. Increasing traffic in them, and doing a poor job of leaving no trace as has been done in Arches, kinda screws it up for our friend Matt. Yes, they are on public land, so you have the RIGHT, but that does not make it RIGHT. CHOOSE THE RIGHT. How do you feel when someone mucks UP your livlihood?

So my plea:
1. don't root out Matt's canyons - go do published canyons elsewhere, or root out your own.
2. if you find a Matt canyon, don't publish it. Consider it a personal victory or whatever turns your churn.
3. when out exploring, or doing matt's canyons, or doing other canyons, be good. Don't muck things up. Don't leave rope grooves and anchor slings where there are none. Don't leave junk behind. Don't step on the crypto. etc. etc.

Thanks for listening. My apologies to Mike for being the "target of opportunity" that stepped into my crosshairs - sorry.

Tom

[Reedus]

For some reason Tom I think your post is going to turn this thread into a big debate.

[Lizzard]

Ironic coming from the guy posting free beta and mucking up the livelihood of Kelsey.

[rockgremlin]

Ironic coming from the guy posting free beta and mucking up the livelihood of Kelsey.

Uh oh....the gauntlet has been thrown...


I agree with Tom to a point. Since Matt guides on public lands, I have every right to hike in the same canyons he guides in.....without having to pay some guide service to hold my hand, and carry the ropes. You're implying that nobody has any right to be in "Matt's canyons" unless they have paid the entry fee. This is false. Matt doesn't own the lands he guides on, the canyons he guides in, nor the crypto he hikes around. These canyons are public domain.

I don't think it's "TAWDRY and WRONG" to "root out the location" of "Matt's canyons." However, once you discover Matt's canyons, what you end up doing with that beta might be considered TAWDRY and WRONG in the eyes of some.

[ratagonia]

I agree with Tom to a point. Since Matt guides on public lands, I have every right to hike in the same canyons he guides in.....without having to pay some guide service to hold my hand, and carry the ropes. You're implying that nobody has any right to be in "Matt's canyons" unless they have paid the entry fee. This is false. Matt doesn't own the lands he guides on, the canyons he guides in, nor the crypto he hikes around. These canyons are public domain.

I don't think it's "TAWDRY and WRONG" to "root out the location" of "Matt's canyons." However, once you discover Matt's canyons, what you end up doing with that beta might be considered TAWDRY and WRONG in the eyes of some.

C'mon, I SPECIFICALLY covered my derriere on that point. You have EVERY RIGHT to track down where Matt runs his adventures. That does not make it MORALLY RIGHT to do so. And as you point out, tracking them down is not so bad, it is publishing them and doing-them-leaving-junk-behind that is MORALLY SUSPECT.

Tom

[rockgremlin]

C'mon, I SPECIFICALLY covered my derriere on that point. You have EVERY RIGHT to track down where Matt runs his adventures. That does not make it MORALLY RIGHT to do so. And as you point out, tracking them down is not so bad, it is publishing them and doing-them-leaving-junk-behind that is MORALLY SUSPECT.

Tom

Fair enough. Goin back to my cave now...

[Iceaxe]

Matt's canyons

Just out of curiosity..... how does one go about obtaining an entire canyon? I'd like to know because there a half dozen I'd like to put my name on.

[Scott Card]

Matt's canyons

Just out of curiosity..... how does one go about obtaining an entire canyon? I'd like to know because there a half dozen I'd like to put my name on.

Nope, sorry, too late, you gave them away (and thanks for Zero Gravity)

[moab mark]

Shouldn't http://www.northwashoutfitters.com/tours.htm get the same preferential treatment.
Maybe those new canyons that Dave has found were some secret canyon that north wash was doing?

http://excursionsofescalante.com/ What about these guys?

Why is Matt any different then these two companies, I'm not following? There are several other companies in moab now leading canyoneering, what about them? Matt's customers and then canyoneering community are probably not the same crowd. Matt's customers pick up a brochure hire him, go canyoneering and then head back to who knows where. How is the general canyoneering public hurting matt?

Tom, you stated
"doing-them-leaving-junk-behind that is MORALLY SUSPECT."
What is getting left behind in moab that isn't getting left in other places?

Yes there are other places to go, but moab is a place to go also and it's public land. The part that makes moab so great is just the opposite of your arguement. Moab works great for families especially with small kids. The routes are short, the rappels are easy and the scenery is great. If there is some other place where everyone in a family can go canyoneer and then hit the pool a few hours later I haven't found it. The north wash etc works great for the diehard canyoneer who wants to camp etc, but thats not for everyone.

Several of Matts canyons have been beta'd for years and he still seems to be in business. So if a few more show up beta'd and my family and I can enjoy them along with other folks I'm sure Matt will survive.

I would bet that north wash and escalante excursions wish that you and shane had not beta'd there areas but you can't put the genie back in the bottle.

You do a great service by giving out beta to the public and many many people have had wonderful adventures thanks to you, why should those going to moab be any different is beyond me?

Mark

[kuper]

Well okay then, I didnt mean to start any kind of debate. I looked at the desert highlights website, $150 isnt too bad, I plan to ask if it would be any cheaper if I supply my own stuff and having been through a tech canyoneering course.
Tom, no worries a good bit my working life is spent in someones crosshairs and often percieved as a target of oportunity

Mike

[Iceaxe]

The routes Matt guides have always enjoyed a bit of protected status among the sprayers of beta..... Best I can tell this is entirely out of the goodness of our hearts. Matt is a super nice guy and is one of us, a canyoneer. One of the first people I met on the forums and did a canyon with (Mystery in Zion) was Matt.

But these are not Matt's canyons; they belong to all of us. His only real claim to the canyons is that he began commercially guiding them first. He did not discover most of these routes. Some of these routes have pitons in them older than he is. Some have mining relics dating from the 50's uranium boom.

I understand Matt's concerns. He is worried that his routes inside Arches will be shut down by the NPS if they see too much traffic. He doesn't like to encounter other groups while guiding because part of his promotion is based on seclusion and remoteness. But access and wilderness are issues we all share.

Moab is the most requested area for beta I receive. Beta requests run 10 to 1 over everywhere else combined. What makes Matt's routes good for guiding also makes them great introductory canyons. They are perfect for noob's and children. For some reason Moab is the most overlooked canyoneering area I know of. It has been overlooked by the hardcore canyoneers for years. I believe this is because the canyons are easy for the most part and don't hold the hardcore interest for long. Some hardcore canyoneers actually schedule Moab for their "rest days". This is because the canyons are easy, fun and entertaining.

For the most part I have not really tried to track down Matt's routes. When gathering beta we normally do our homework and then attack a new area. The problem is just about everything promising we do ends up uncovering at least one canyon guided by one of the Moab companies. There are at least five companies that I know of guiding canyons in Moab at the moment. Avoiding Matt's stuff (and everyone else's stuff) is not really practical when canyoneering Moab.

So the dilemma.... do we not beta Moab because every nifty crack is now being guided? Do we just avoid Matt's stuff because he is our buddy? I'm open to hearing any reasonable arguments on why Matt's routes, or any other guide company should be given some type of special protected status.

Bottom line.... Moab contains a lot of really fun routes and canyons. It's public land that we all own and pay to maintain. Just because Tom deems the routes unworthy of his superior skill's does not mean the routes are not fun, exciting and entertaining.

Anyhoo.... that's my two cents....

[ratagonia]

Shouldn't http://www.northwashoutfitters.com/tours.htm get the same preferential treatment.
Maybe those new canyons that Dave has found were some secret canyon that north wash was doing?

http://excursionsofescalante.com/ What about these guys?

Thank you, Mark, for engaging in this dialogue.

Jared and North Wash Outfitters gets the same kid-glove treatment. They guide canyons that were quite public before they opened, and they pioneered certain canyons that are not really public. There is little pressure on that part of the state.

Rick at Excursion of Escalante has to try a little harder to protect his guiding turf, but is generally successful.

As Shane has very eloquently pointed out, the pressure is in Moab because that's where the people are, where the families are, and where there are few tech canyons that the Moabites including Matt and Brett do not use as a business resource.

Why is Matt any different then these two companies, I'm not following? There are several other companies in moab now leading canyoneering, what about them? Matt's customers and then canyoneering community are probably not the same crowd. Matt's customers pick up a brochure hire him, go canyoneering and then head back to who knows where. How is the general canyoneering public hurting matt?

Well, it doesn't. I'm requesting respect for commercial operations, and voluntary non-publication of the public resources that are important to their operations.

The main wound on Matt's operation is the rope grooves and environmental damage in "his canyons" being done by privates who do not have as sophisticated a non-impact style as Matt (and Brett, and ...) have.

Running into big groups when guiding CAN be a problem, but my experience with this, though quite limited, is that it is easily manageable by the guide. Most privates do a good job of being polite and respectful, in the canyons, in my experience.

Thanks for your consideration (now that I have morphed it from a berating to a polite request).

Tom

[Jaxx]

Does it really hurt the businesses alot? Seems like people who are canyoneers looking for beta probably won't pay to have a guide take them through anything.

My questions is I guess does free beta take away clients. Tom, do you see alot of canyoneers when you guide for ZAC? Or was it mostly out of towners wanting to experience something new?

[ratagonia]

Does it really hurt the businesses alot? Seems like people who are canyoneers looking for beta probably won't pay to have a guide take them through anything.

My questions is I guess does free beta take away clients. Tom, do you see alot of canyoneers when you guide for ZAC? Or was it mostly out of towners wanting to experience something new?

As you note, clients and privates mostly come from a different crowd.

There is a general concern that running into a large, difficult private group when guiding could be a problem. But I have not heard of this happening, and it does not happen with us over here near Zion. I occasionally run into privates when guiding, but generally small groups, and we manage a neat pass-through efficiently.

Specific to Matt, damage to the routes he uses in Arches Natl Park from privates has the Park concerned, and his permit could be pulled because of this.

My diatribe is mostly against using the clues in Matt's photos to dig out, and then gleefully publish (if done, gleefully) his routes. This is my interpretation of what has happened in the past. The starting question for this thread was as to Plieades canyon, one of Matt's routes.

As Shane notes, there are plenty of other nice routes in Moab. Why don't you guys put your energy into finding other routes who's non-publication is not a concern to some of our friends. (This seems to be where we are at this point - good!).

Tom

[ratagonia]

Tom, no worries a good bit my working life is spent in someones crosshairs and often percieved as a target of oportunity

Mike

Utah National Guard? Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, State Trooper, ACLU, Democratic Utah State Representative?



Tom

[Iceaxe]

Sometimes I think the guidebooks, websites and sprayers of beta are over looked by the commercial guiding businesses.... I know I have sent literally hundreds of people to Desert Highlights and Zion Adventures. I get at least one email a week asking if I can recommend a reputable guide service. This has been going on for 10 years. I'm guessing Tom get's many similar requests. You can do the math on the amount of business this generates for the guide companies.

[Iceaxe]

Specific to Matt, damage to the routes he uses in Arches Natl Park from privates has the Park concerned, and his permit could be pulled because of this.

I do have one small bitch with Matt in this regard.... Matt could do a lot to get rid of this problem. When a route is published that crosses a sensitive area a simple email to those suppling the beta recommending a better way to do the route would likely get great results. I know in regards to Dragonfly Matt bitches about the routes posted, but he has never offered a better start. Just an email basically stating "hey dumbass, your route sucks" (but in Matt's nice sort of way).

And with regards to Teirdrop. Perhaps a well placed and hidden bolt station might be the solution? If the bolt is betaed in the route guide it will be used. And as you all know, I'm not a fan of bolts, but occasionally they do have an appropriate use. Teirdrop might be one of them. One other thought on Teirdrop. I checked out the start of the route last week (I did not do the entire route). The start of the route looks exactly like it did when I first seem it 3 years ago. I could see no wear caused by the general public. The only rope grooves where the same ones that were there 3 years ago.

I see most of this as being a good neighbor and an education issue... none of this has to be a big deal if folks will work together and learn to play nice with each other.

[Jaxx]

My diatribe is mostly against using the clues in Matt's photos to dig out, and then gleefully publish (if done, gleefully) his routes.
Tom

If I ever find his route I promise not to publish it gleefully. It will be a somber and depressing moment for me.

[moab mark]

So back to the original question,

Are we giving Mike plieades beta or not? It sounds like not.
Until you do it you cannot believe it is in moab. Oh and then there is this other one.....................

Tom,
The biggest problem in moab is just what you stated the masses are there. If you think this is a problem you should of been hanging out in moab as a jeeper 8 or so years ago when Charles Wells wrote his guide book on all the jeep trails in moab. Now that put people over the edge. Now he has wrote one for atv's. There has been a hugh increase in atv use since this guide came out. Just tell everyone to stay home and I can have it all to myself, and of course my close friends. Which reminds me packing up to head back down to hang out with the masses later tonight.

One last item, Matt has a schedule on his website of what he is doing and on what days. Whenever I am headed there I go and look at his schedule and then try to plan around where he is at. Maybe more people could do this and it would help Us stay out of his way. From what I understand he doesn't put plieades up so someone doesn't track him to the trail head.

Mark