Sandthrax TR

[Iceaxe]

but people on this forum have called others on the carpet for stupid stunts like this. So why not these guys

Gosh Spidey, guess I don't consider what they did a stupid stunt.... I kinda considered you a canyon noob when you did Sandthrax.... Not a noob in the skill and talent category, since I think your are very talented..... but a noob in the experience department since you didn't have what I would have considered a high number of canyons under your belt when you did the route....

Hope ya don't take that the wrong way..... just sayin'.... ones idea of qualified differs from anthers. This group had full knowledge of what the canyon contained and was as prepared research and beta wise as well as any group that has done the route. I've always felt a canyon like Sandthrax should be a personal choice of when you feel qualified.... its not up to us to play canyon cop.... The first time I entered this canyon I knew it would eventually become a test piece......

Again... hope you don't take this wrong..... I've seen canyoneers with 10 years of experience I would advise against doing Sandthrax.... and I have talented climber friends who I would have no problem seeing them do the route after only a few canyons.... YMMV....

[Iceaxe]

OK.... a funny story about Sandthrax since I don't think anyone was as ill-prepared for that canyon as Hank, Chris and I were on our descent.....

We had been mae westing along for what seemed like hours.... my spinster was clenched so tight from fear there was no way in hell I could fall.... my butt would have suck me tight to the wall. Chris is way ahead of Hank and I as he was the best climber

[Randi]

OK.... a funny story about Sandthrax .... instead I see alarm in Hanks eyes as he turns to me and udders the words "mine too"....

Talk about a confidence builder....

Talk about a funny sounding sight! Id LOVE to see Hank (or any man for that matter) UDDER a word! I can only imagine what that might look like! Sounds very entertaining!

[Iceaxe]

[Spidey]

Ice, No intention of being canyon cop. As I said I don't care. People want to get hurt, killed, maimed not my problem. My point was to open up a dialogue on why the pass for these guys others have been railed on for lesser stupidity. Also to open up a dialogue on the increased # of similar descents in that canyon. You say they were well prepared, but I say they had paper knowledge of the canyon nothing more as evidenced by their TR. My main question is to the canyon community at large. Kudos to these guys for gutting it out and not needing rescue. The question is have people just accepted that Santhrax will see these kinds of descents because of it's accessability, I believe it will. I hope it doesn't come back to bite us in the butt, regarding access. As far as your other statement I was new to the canyon community when I descended it, not new to canyoneering just FYI.
Spidey

[hank moon]

OK.... a funny story about Sandthrax since I don't think anyone was as ill-prepared for that canyon as Hank, Chris and I were on our descent.....

yah, and another indicator: the trivial DS (downscoot) at the head?

We rapped it.

[Iceaxe]

My point was to open up a dialogue on why the pass for these guys others have been railed on for lesser stupidity.

As I said... I'm not sure I would consider what they did as stupid.... I guess you would need to point me to a post on this site where "others have been railed on for lesser stupidity." and I could at least give you my reasoning if I was the one doing the railing.... or we could compare if it was others doing the railing....

The only ones I can think of are "wear a helmet" which is almost every picture without a helmet. And maybe the guys in Choprock. Who were really killed by lack of beta and not lack of skill (improper equipment). As climbers those two were capable of dealing with the obstacles, just not with hypothermia. They were not prepared "on paper" as you put it.

Anyhoo.... just my 2 cents.

[Iceaxe]

Alright.... lets rephrase this and see if we can turn this thread into a positive learning experience....

How much technical experiance does this group think someone should have before attempting Sandthrax or a similar canyon?

How much practical experience does this group think someone should have before attempting Sandthrax or a similar canyon?

Curious minds want to know.....

[AJ]

How much technical experiance does this group think someone should have before attempting Sandthrax or a similar canyon?

How much practical experience does this group think someone should have before attempting Sandthrax or a similar canyon?

Curious minds want to know.....

Wouldn't watching the Utah Canyons episode of Man vs Wild be enough? ;)

[Iceaxe]

Wouldn't watching the Utah Canyons episode of Man vs Wild be enough? ;)

we were just talking about that last Saturday.... I see great minds think a like.

[Jaxx]

wait it's not. Great I have to change my post in the other thread about what test canyons we want to do.

[ratagonia]

Well since it appears that no one else on either forum is willing to say it I will. These guys got lucky. Their body position in the pictures and just the amount of time it took them for 3 people indicates they didn't belong in there YET. The most experienced person had what 7 canyons. None of them of this type. I believe it's going to keep happening with Santhrax just because of it's accessability. Sooner or later someone will get very seriously hurt or killed in there because of that, and it will be on a trip like this! No skin off my nose I really don't care, but people on this forum have called others on the carpet for stupid stunts like this. So why not these guys.
Spidey :

Thank you, Spidey.

But this IS the Bogley, where doing stupid things and getting away with it is considered good fun.

The difference with climbing is this: if you pick a (rock) climb that is way over your head, you can usually figure that out, then rap off when you've had enough. In canyons, no such luck. When Shane and Hank went into Sandthrax and got shut down, the only reason they survived was because they were smart enough to bring along Chris, and experienced and hard-core aid climber, who could imagine that climbing an 80 degree sandstone wall using three bolts and a polypro water-skiing rope was "safe" - and was skilled and lucky enough to pull it off.

And just to be clear, here in America, you are certainly welcome to be as stupid as you wish. That is your right. Yee Haw! But throwing yourself into dangerous canyons without proper mentorship and experience is just rolling the dice. This time you rolled a 7. The fellows in Choprock were also stupid, and they rolled snake eyes.

Just as, it would be even more stupid, to attempt certain other "high risk" canyons before your skills are tempered by experience and teaching - especially including Psycho Damage and Smiling Cricket. That people have suggested these to you, to ME, indicates a lack of common sense on their part. YES, with, for instance, Eric, you would have a fun time in Psycho Damage, and learn a LOT. By yourselves, there's a good chance that someone would get hurt. (In this instance, I consider 5% a "good chance" - notice that say, 19 times out of 20, you would not get hurt. It's that one time that really counts, however).

Yes, I know, you are young, strong and indestructable, just like most everyone else here. No reason to wear a helmet, your head is hard enough to protect your () brain.

OK, enough abuse. Yes, you were stupid to throw yourself at Sandthrax. Yes, you were strong, skilled and lucky enough to complete it. Good job. Thank you. Now, don't do it again, OK?

Tom

[Iceaxe]

I think Tom's being a little dramatic..... actually.... our only real problem with our first try at Sandthrax was we just ran out of daylight. If it had of been a warm spring day I believe things would have been different. We took the escape we did because it kept us out of the canyon bottom during the night so we would not get flashed.... and it would keep us warm all night working on the escape.... and the warm all night part sounded great to me since I was wearing shorts and a t-shirt and it was 30 degrees. Using the side escape was Chris's idea and he was pretty sure we could do it.... that also sounded good to me.... It was dark, we were cold, it wasn't fun anymore, we just wanted out.....

Knowing what I know now we would have been much better off finishing the canyon and not going out the side. Also looking back.... When we hit the crux it was dark, I'm thinking Chris could climb it. We never tried and Chris never even saw the crux that night. While having Chris was a great asset.... if it had of just been Hank and I I'm pretty sure we would have finished off the canyon the next day by going out the bottom. I'm guessing we would have just drilled our way over the crux.

One last item.... while being in the slot over night was the most miserable night of my life.... I never felt we were in any real danger outside the normal canyoneering stuff. We left a detailed itinerary with a trusted person who did as instructed when we didn't report in on time. We always knew we were getting out.... it was just a matter of when and could we do it ourselves.

YMMV

[forum8fox]

I don't think it was exactly luck that got us through. We did have a back up plan so there was no way we could be trapped (hammer, hand drill, hooks, 10 studs). Both Eric and I are fairly experienced aid climbers (I've lead 4 C3 pitches). I also had a bunch of food and water and layers so a night in the canyon would have been survivable. I had been in boss hog and alcatraz prior to this trip and took a ton of oppertunitys to learn all the techniques I could in a less exposed environment so as to prepare for something like this. (this might be an interesting read, 17 posts down: http://www.mountainproject.com/v/oth...yons/106291995)I felt up to the test. We never did anything we weren't 100% sure about when it comes to body english and that's mostly why it took us so long (there was alot of coaching). We all knew the whole canyon would be a DFU type sittuation. It was known if you fell you might as well be dead and there is a great possibility you would actually be dead. It's not like we got more then we expected or had planned for.

Maybe the numbers were against us, but I don't think even 100 kiddie canyons will MAKE you ready for this. Besides I'm poor and live in colorado so I can't just come out and log miles anytime I want to prepare for something that I really want to do. Life is short, why pussy-foot around your dreams and wait for someone to lead your path? My personality won't allow me that luxury, I make things happen for myself. On top of that a huge part of me wants to know what I'm capable of and push the level of my skills, you have to test yourself sometimes to learn.

I'm glad we did it in the style we did, I don't think I would have felt as much of an accomplishment if we had been guided or had we deployed a rim support team. This was a great test peice and I feel like I can relate to the first couple teams to descent this beast. I think Eric would agree on the style as most of the time he doesn't even want a paper guide unless it's realy necessary.
I feel like this was my inittiation into real hard technical canyoneering, and if it wasn't for this trip I would probly never have (kinda) met Shane and Tom. Hopefully I've proven worthy enough to tag along with them sometime on something real hard (as I have no mentors).

As for the access what do you propose should happen? No acces to anyone with out a guide(mentor) and rim support team, helmets and X number of canyons under their belt? Yea right. What I think might help though would be posting as acurate and descriptive info as possible as well as a good amount of pictures of all the hardships to be faced. That way no one is suprised by what they find in this easily accessable canyon. A mention of great endurance required, and possibly a list of suggested prerequisit canyons could help too. It's pretty obvious this is a test peice and will remain that way.

Looks like the next couple canyons on the list are probly psycho d and quandry direct, hopefully between now and memorial weekend.

[Iceaxe]

This will probably hurt ol' Tom's feelings..... but.... if I'm doing a hard canyon or exploring a new area I'll trade two grey breads for one 25 year old rope gun any day.

It's been my experience that a young fella who can climb 5.12 will save my butt more often then a guy that knows how to tie a bunch of really cool knots. Them young guys just don't understand that it's impossible so they just go ahead and do it.....

YMMV

But on a side note... I think the very best teams are a couple grey breads teamed with a couple of young rope guns.

And a warning for the kiddies playing along at home.... being young doesn't automatically make you a rope gun

[Jaxx]

YES! I have lead a 5.8 and I have also done a handful of canyons. I am doing Sandthrax this weekend now that I am a rope gun!

And a warning for the kiddies playing along at home.... being young doesn't automatically make you a rope gun

Oh bummer.

[Iceaxe]

Or we can use the official Iceaxe rope gun test.... which is.... if I can climb it you are not a rope gun.

[Brian in SLC]

This will probably hurt ol' Tom's feelings..... but.... if I'm doing a hard canyon or exploring a new area I'll trade two grey breads for one 25 year old rope gun any day.

It's been my experience that a young fella who can climb 5.12 will save my butt more often then a guy that knows how to tie a bunch of really cool knots. Them young guys just don't understand that it's impossible so they just go ahead and do it.....

That's pretty funny...

But, depends on said rope gun's ability too. 5.12 sports climbing doesn't equal being able to cruz, say, Certain Death in Little Cottonwood (all you 5.8 climbers give that a go and report back here, eh?).

Tom knows Kelly O, who still works at BD retail. Kelly's story of climbing a 5.6 trad route in LCC is hilarious. At the time, he was probably leading 5.12 or "easy" 5.13 sport.

Anyhoo, point being, being strong at specific types of climbing might not be enough. Seen a number of very strong climbers hike "All Chalk No Action" for instance, and back off, say, "Paranoia Streak" to the left, which is at least two grades easier.

I always get a kick out of folks who proudly profess, "I'm a 5.8 climber". Oh yeah, well, I got a tick list for ya...ha ha. And, a tight top rope don't count...

Wish I could climb the wide with pride...

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC
(speaking of climbing prowess, I should embarass someone who posts here who's mentioned in Sherman's Stone Crusade as having the hardest bouldering route in the country back in the day...any guesses?)

[ratagonia]

-Brian in SLC
(speaking of climbing prowess, I should embarass someone who posts here who's mentioned in Sherman's Stone Crusade as having the hardest bouldering route in the country back in the day...any guesses?)

" ..... took over and in a brief four-year career set a standard for Indian Rock (Berkeley) that would last a decade."

Wow, rubbing shoulders with the stars...

Tom

[ratagonia]

This will probably hurt ol' Tom's feelings..... but.... if I'm doing a hard canyon or exploring a new area I'll trade two grey breads for one 25 year old rope gun any day.

Mighty Tom is feelin' mighty OLD right now, after chasing the young guns in the Grand Canyon for the last two weeks. In the GC, being a young gun has a lot to do with moving a 45 lb pack up 3500 feet of loose scree than campusing between limestone gastones.

Depends on the canyon, Shane. Certainly in hard climby canyons like Sandthrax, having some of that trad-influenced stylin climbin mojo is the answer to many problems, and these fellers brought along the mojo and dispensed with the "crux" expeditiously.

But greybeards like me MUST move fluidly and efficiently, because I ain't got power, endurance or mojo to spare. Experience in these types of canyons develops cleverness in those who are paying attention. Cleverness is useful in managing risk and conserving strength.

The problem with your claim, dear Shane, is that you are talking with young guns. Young guns do not need other unseasoned young guns to show them the way - the best team is young guns and decrepit greybeards working together. Therefore, THESE young guns are unlikely to gain much by working with other unseasoned young guns. They would benefit from some greybeard coaching. There are also seasoned young guns that they might enjoy even more - and who knows what awe inspiring canyons they could accomplish together - including many I have no interest in...

Tom