Sandthrax TR

[forum8fox]

Bombays are kinda like subways eh? only you can't go over a bombay to the other side as the back side spits you out way in the air in a wider section and down climbing at that point would drop you into the subway, I mean bombay...... A little confusing?
So the phrase used on climb utah was devils pits right? I'm assuming that's a silo? IE a generally deep cylindrical shaped room that opens in the middle of mae west obstacles, passed by bridging or a penji to the other side or down climbing and up climbing the opposite side.

can silo's be small enough to chimmney over? (IE feet and back, but big enough to still eat a person)

Wow were off on a tangent now.

[Iceaxe]

We always head off in a tangent... if it get too far off course we will just split the thread into its own topic.....

Most of these are just my definitions used by my canyon partners and myself. I'm guessing other inbred groups will have their own terms or different meanings....

What people are now calling "silos" I originally called "bells"... as in the mae west slot belled out on you. But I now use silos because that seems to be the term everyone else is using.

A large silo or keeper pothole can be a devils pit. I call any portion of canyon that can trap you in the bottom by blocking both ends with obstacle that you must climb over a devils pit.

The best way to describe a bombay is that you are happily mae westing along above a subway and the slot ends or widens drmatically. If you continue you will drop out of the slot like a bomb.

Here is how I remember Sandthrax (it's been a couple of years)... rappel, rappel, stem, stem, stem, stem, stem, stem......stem, stem, stem, stem, stem, stem.......stem, stem, silo, stem, stem, stem, stem, stem, stem,silo, stem, stem, stem, stem, stem, stem,stem, bombay into a devils pit, stem, stem, big silo, crux, stem, stem, silo, stem, stem, stem, stem.

[ratagonia]

bingo. I would add to the stemming definition that it may mean rear end on one side of the canyon or canyon wall and feet on the other, hands on one side and feet on the other. Or any combination of body parts touching both sides of the canyon walls while being off the deck(the bottom of the canyon).

as group stickler, let me say ---

"Chimneying" involves feet on one side, back on the other, facing sideways or up.

"Stemming" involves a hand and foot on each side - a symmetric approach. Usually facing forward.

"Bridging" involves hands on one side, feet on the other, facing down.

"Galumphing" is moving rapidly downcanyon using stemming, and swinging the body under the arms to be caught by the feet, or a foot/butt stem.

OK, back to the usual loose use of the language.

T

[ratagonia]

Bombays are kinda like subways eh? only you can't go over a bombay to the other side as the back side spits you out way in the air in a wider section and down climbing at that point would drop you into the subway, I mean bombay...... A little confusing?
So the phrase used on climb utah was devils pits right? I'm assuming that's a silo? IE a generally deep cylindrical shaped room that opens in the middle of mae west obstacles, passed by bridging or a penji to the other side or down climbing and up climbing the opposite side.

can silo's be small enough to chimmney over? (IE feet and back, but big enough to still eat a person)

Wow were off on a tangent now.

Silos can be any size. Small ones are called "Gapers". Big ones are called "Scary".

Tom

[Iceaxe]

as group stickler, let me say ---

Now that's how ya write up definitions that should be added to the glossary.

Thanks Tom, your words are now immortalized in the Bogley Canyoneering Glossary

[ratagonia]

Bombays are kinda like subways eh? only you can't go over a bombay to the other side as the back side spits you out way in the air in a wider section and down climbing at that point would drop you into the subway, I mean bombay......

Bombays are the same as in climbing, assuming you have done some trad climbing. The canyon or crack is flared downward, such that if you go lower, you will first get less secure, then fall off.

While the original Mae West had that shape, from which the term Mae West comes (nicely wide above, sumptuously wide below, somewhat skinny in the middle), the term has come to mean almost any canyon where you are off the ground for more than a few moves. Sandthrax has a LOT of Mae Westing, but only rarely forms the true Mae West shape.

It's only a subway if you walk or crawl through it. Helps the illusion if it has some water in the bottom. Usually called a "Subway section", after the Subway in Zion.

T

[ratagonia]

So the phrase used on climb utah was devils pits right? I'm assuming that's a silo? IE a generally deep cylindrical shaped room that opens in the middle of mae west obstacles, passed by bridging or a penji to the other side or down climbing and up climbing the opposite side.

can silo's be small enough to chimmney over? (IE feet and back, but big enough to still eat a person)

Wow were off on a tangent now.

A Devil's Pit is a feature of a larger canyon, usually. Comes from the 1982 Heaps trip report:

http://canyoneeringusa.com/history/heaps82.htm

It is a paradoxical location in a canyon, where there are several ways in, but where there is no apparent exit. And by exit, we might mean for the water, or we might mean for the human beans.

A Silo COULD be called a Devil's Pit, but Silo is more descriptive. A Pothole could be called a Devil's Pit, but Pothole is more descriptive.

A Devil's pit need not be difficult. The huge landslide in Mystery (Zion) created a Devil's pit. The water seeps through the sand, or evaporates. The pile of sand is 200 feet high.

Where the crux in Sandthrax is could be considered a Devil's Pit. Getting in from upcanyon is pretty easy. Getting out, downcanyon, considerably less so.

Tom

[Iceaxe]

If I understand things correctly from Mr. Wrona.... the term mae west was first used when doing a really tight slot they were actually squeezing through. The slot was so tight they had to search up and down vertically to find a place wide enough to squeeze through.... and from that experiance the term expanded to what is common today.

At least that is anther version of where/how the term orginiated.

FWIW: Mr. Wrona was the first person I ever heard use the terms Mae West and Bunny strap..... he was also the first to use a couple of my all time favorite terms... kiddie canyoneer and rap-n-swim canyoneer.

[rockgremlin]

I'll answer for Justin since I can reedz mindz. He is talking about the smith canyon forks on Lake Powell such as Psycho D. Not Smith Mesa.

YES! Thanks for gettin my 6 bro!

[Scott Card]

bingo. I would add to the stemming definition that it may mean rear end on one side of the canyon or canyon wall and feet on the other, hands on one side and feet on the other. Or any combination of body parts touching both sides of the canyon walls while being off the deck(the bottom of the canyon).

as group stickler, let me say ---

"Chimneying" involves feet on one side, back on the other, facing sideways or up.

"Stemming" involves a hand and foot on each side - a symmetric approach. Usually facing forward.

"Bridging" involves hands on one side, feet on the other, facing down.

"Galumphing" is moving rapidly downcanyon using stemming, and swinging the body under the arms to be caught by the feet, or a foot/butt stem.

OK, back to the usual loose use of the language.

T

Well now I know. Thanks oh wise stickler. And I would further loosly call stemming, bridging et al. "ah crap" or "survival" Not my favorite skill, probably because I ain't that great at any of it. Now back to trying to correctly use the terms from now on......

[nat]

as group stickler, let me say ---


"Stemming" involves a hand and foot on each side - a symmetric approach. Usually facing forward.


T

As another "stickler", I have to disagree with this definition. It's possible (though, from my memory I'm not even sure about this) that stemming use to have this restricted definition in climbing circles. Nowadays, canyoneers generally use the term "stemming" much more generally, as any progression through a canyon where the feet are off the ground, usually with some kind of opposition: some body parts on one side of the canyon, some on the other. Doesn't have to be symetric.

Nat

[Scott Card]

as group stickler, let me say ---


"Stemming" involves a hand and foot on each side - a symmetric approach. Usually facing forward.


T

As another "stickler", I have to disagree with this definition. It's possible (though, from my memory I'm not even sure about this) that stemming use to have this restricted definition in climbing circles. Nowadays, canyoneers generally use the term "stemming" much more generally, as any progression through a canyon where the feet are off the ground, usually with some kind of opposition: some body parts on one side of the canyon, some on the other. Doesn't have to be symetric.

Nat

HEY!!! That is what I said. Two votes for the general definition. (Although I am certainly one who appreciates precision in language, unless I can't think of the right word that is )

[ratagonia]

as group stickler, let me say ---
"Stemming" involves a hand and foot on each side - a symmetric approach. Usually facing forward.
T

As another "stickler", I have to disagree with this definition. It's possible (though, from my memory I'm not even sure about this) that stemming used to have this restricted definition in climbing circles. Nowadays, canyoneers generally use the term "stemming" much more generally, as any progression through a canyon where the feet are off the ground, usually with some kind of opposition: some body parts on one side of the canyon, some on the other. Doesn't have to be symmetric.

Nat

Ah, then I offer myself as an advocate, lobbyist and champion of a careful and particular use of the language.

A quick review of "the sources" yields no helpful information. Basic Rockcraft calls stemming 'bridging' and does not use the term stemming at all. Downward Bound is of course entertaining, but fails to make any distinctions in these areas. Both of these are, of course, quite ancient texts.

A more recent text, but emotionally perhaps on a par vis a vis datedness is the committee-written Freedom of the Hills, which again offers not much in specificity.

So, back to advocacy for me, I guess. I believe in using language to make distinctions, to distinguish between similar but different techniques by using seperate words to describe each. Thus I CLAIM, and you can follow if you wish, the fully distinct activities: stemming, chimneying, bridging, galumphing; and the all-encompassing terms such as "mae westing" and (for Mr. Card Shark) "fighting", "battling", "anguishing", and the all encompassing "working".

For the record, I hope never to use the verb "route-find"!

Tom

[forum8fox]

I think I agree with tom's logic on this one. Stemming should be one side on one wall and one side on the other (LDC right side of body on right side of canyon and left side of body on left side of canyon). Which in retro spect I did very little of in sand thrax. As a climber chimneying to me means any crack that is wide enough to squeeze into with the whole body. Including kneebars, heel & toe, arm bars, chicken wings, knee/back and feet/back. Common chimmney technique for climbers. Bridging is when you use your whole body to bridge a gap hands/feet.

Sure terms can be used as common referance, but with out really laying down guidelines for each term then it's a bit chaotic. Might as well just say knee/back, feet/back, hands/feet as we mostly did in the canyon, although none of is employed the hands/feet. This methoud leaves little room for interperitation unlike the generalization of "stem" or "chimmney" or "bridge" as seem to be thrown around randomly as obviously no one interperits them the same.

Yep we're way off on a tangent now, although semi relevantly pertaining to this canyon.

Oh and as to your route find comment. I found it funny that the description on climb utah suggested you need good map reading and route finding skills for sandthrax! HA. What a joke atleast IMO, I though that was the least of your required skills.

[ratagonia]

Yep we're way off on a tangent now, although semi relevantly pertaining to this canyon.

Oh and as to your route find comment. I found it funny that the description on climb utah suggested you need good map reading and route finding skills for sandthrax! HA. What a joke atleast IMO, I though that was the least of your required skills.

Yeah, not too hard to find.

We forgot "Houdini" - left foot on right wall, right foot on left wall; left hand on right wall, right hand on left wall.

Lynn does it. Dean does it.

I do it fairly often with the feet, but rarely with the hands.

Tom

[Scott Card]

So, back to advocacy for me, I guess. I believe in using language to make distinctions, to distinguish between similar but different techniques by using seperate words to describe each. Thus I CLAIM, and you can follow if you wish, the fully distinct activities: stemming, chimneying, bridging, galumphing; and the all-encompassing terms such as "mae westing" and (for Mr. Card Shark) "fighting", "battling", "anguishing", and the all encompassing "working".

For the record, I hope never to use the verb "route-find"!

Tom

Your description of me "mae westing" is oh so painful to swallow but oh so true. Fighting, battling and anguishing? Yes. Working? Absolutely. You could probably add praying, doubting, regretting, hyperventilating, and shaking. But then when all is said and done, I am glad I did it.

I agree with your desire to be precise as to different skills. Forgive this grasshopper of his less than precise distinctions of the different skills involved in mae westing. I see the need for distinctions particularly in a canyon such as Sandthrax. To know that you will be bridging over silos at a less than desirable height is helpful for me, Mr. Poultry in Motion (hey, that may be my new internet name!) in determining whether to go into Sandthrax.

And so with my admission of a lack of fine-tuned mae westing skills and less than precise mae westing skills descriptions, I duck my head and slink away back to my case I am working on and to an arena where my big words are very expensive and unintelligible to mere folk.

[shaggy125]

Ya, Psycho Damage is a good one, also some good high stemmers in Escalante. Some much more difficult overall and longer than Sandthrax (although the crux may not be quite as hard as Sandthrax's). PM me if you are interested in a trip this spring. ericgodfrey@gmail.com

Here is a TR of Psycho Damage:

http://utoutdoors.blogspot.com/2008/...al-damage.html

[Reedus]

Ya, Psycho Damage is a good one, also some good high stemmers in Escalante. Some much more difficult overall and longer than Sandthrax (although the crux may not be quite as hard as Sandthrax's). PM me if you are interested in a trip this spring. ericgodfrey@gmail.com

Here is a TR of Psycho Damage:

http://utoutdoors.blogspot.com/2008/...al-damage.html

Need to do another Powell trip. The last one was pretty sweet. And I still gotts Chop in the cross hairs...

[Jaxx]

FYI, I have a report on my website: www.adventure-geek.com from our trip through; it was on 10/24/07.

Take care,
A.J.

Took us all freaking day! We were up at 7 and the approach isn't long so I'm guessing it was no later then say 8:30 when we dropped in. I checked my phone I think at the silo with the subway or near there and it was around 3:30. Back to the car and beer in hand by about 5:30.

Thanks for the info guys.

[Spidey]

Well since it appears that no one else on either forum is willing to say it I will. These guys got lucky. Their body position in the pictures and just the amount of time it took them for 3 people indicates they didn't belong in there YET. The most experienced person had what 7 canyons. None of them of this type. I believe it's going to keep happening with Santhrax just because of it's accessability. Sooner or later someone will get very seriously hurt or killed in there because of that, and it will be on a trip like this! No skin off my nose I really don't care, but people on this forum have called others on the carpet for stupid stunts like this. So why not these guys.
Spidey :