Another Rich Wrangle

[skianddive]

Lee,
I don't know you from adam but your continual attacks on the ACA become tiresome. I guess you had a bad experience with Rich some years ago, so the ACA is not only Rich but many other capable canyoneers. Do you have a beef with all of us? Surely you wouldn't deny that Rich has taught many canyoneers and made the sport inheritantly safer?

Spare me the you should have known him back when, I really am tired of the contoversy.

I enjoy the sport and I enjoy learning, I've learned alot from many people and hope to continue to do so. If you have intelligent things to add to this discussion jump in and help us out.

Thanks for asking, Kurt. I enjoy the sport as much as you - probably more - but we'll leave that for another discussion. What you view as attacks are my subtle attempts to educate people to the realities of Rich and his self-organized American Canyoneering Association. I believe your views are likely clouded by your close relationship with Rich, and that's OK - we've all been guilty of a faux pas like that in our past.

But because of your questions, I'll be providing detailed answers for you this coming Monday, but let me just say that there are lots of ways to learn canyoneering, and Rich and his American Canyoneering Association are not the only game in town, despite what you may have been taught or learned.

Have a great weekend!

~Lee

[oldno7]

My only questions were---Do you have a beef with all of us? Has Rich made canyoneering safer?

I neither care or want to see "your" points, they don't matter and they are only yours. You don't think anyone but yourself can figure things out and come up with sound judgment? Make your own judgments and live with them, and allow others the same courtesy. That's my point. I'm almost 50 yrs old, I'm pretty good at formulating my own opinions.

And you assume things about were I have learned and continue to learn the craft of canyoneering. Much of it is attributed to Rich, much of it is not.
And sorry to be blunt here but---you have no clue about my friendship with Rich.
If you want to sit down with someone and express your opinions face to face, I think that is a good route. If you want to smear someones reputation over the internet based on personal beliefs, I see that as cowardly.
So I will close with one more question(that makes 3)Is there something positive that is gained from your hatred of Rich? If your gaining something positive out of it then it would be good for you on a personal level to continue, If your not gaining anything positive out of it, then could you be wasting your time?(sorry for the 4th question)

[Scott Card]

But because of your questions, I'll be providing detailed answers for you this coming Monday, but let me just say that there are lots of ways to learn canyoneering, and Rich and his American Canyoneering Association are not the only game in town, despite what you may have been taught or learned.

Have a great weekend!

~Lee

For those of us who tire of the Rich body slams, please start a new thread so I don't have to weed through your "answers" to read comments about my question on the in-line fingure 8. Am I making this request because I am a Rich disciple? Nope, I have never met the man. However, these consistent and pointed slams are most unbecoming and tiring. What ever happened, I humbly suggest that you get over it. Life will be much happier. Just a suggestion. Oh and I am fully aware of the fact that the ACA is not the only game in town. But I enjoy playing on many playgrounds.

[hank moon]

For those of us who tire of the Rich body slams, please start a new thread

x2

the ACA is not the only game in town. But I enjoy playing on many playgrounds.

Maybe not "only," but certainly the best and most economical option around for exposure a broad range of canyoneering techniques.

[skianddive]

I neither care or want to see "your" points, they don't matter and they are only yours. You don't think anyone but yourself can figure things out and come up with sound judgment?

The intelligent people of Bogley can certainly figure things out for themselves IF they have all the facts. You are missing a lot of information.

Make your own judgments and live with them, and allow others the same courtesy.

They will not be "my" points or opinions - they will be facts. And I would keep them to myself, Kurt, but Rich does not abide by the same rules.

And you assume things about were[sp!] I have learned and continue to learn the craft of canyoneering. Much of it is attributed to Rich, much of it is not.

I'm not assuming anything about your training. I go by what I read and what I hear from other people.

And sorry to be blunt here but---you have no clue about my friendship with Rich.

Ummm, RIF. I didn't say anything about FRIENDSHIP - I said CLOSE RELATIONSHIP.

If you want to sit down with someone and express your opinions face to face, I think that is a good route. If you want to smear someones reputation over the internet based on personal beliefs, I see that as cowardly.

I think sitting down with someone in private and making disparaging remarks about others, as Rich often does, is cowardly. I am not the only one who has heard him do this, as is related in the Canyon Folks thread from May of 2008.

AND I would say anything I am going to post on Monday directly to your face and/or Rich's if you would like to meet up on your next visit to SoCal. Maybe we could secretly meet somewhere, say a conference room in the Staybridge Suites, and invite others from SoCal.

So I will close with one more question(that makes 3)Is there something positive that is gained from your hatred of Rich?

I don't hate anybody. My "don't trust or respect list" is short - Rich Carlson.

If your gaining something positive out of it then it would be good for you on a personal level to continue, If your not gaining anything positive out of it, then could you be wasting your time?(sorry for the 4th question)

Educating people is not a waste of my time, and educating people about the character of the people that they do business with is certainly not a waste of my time. Just ask Tom J.

[DWayne27]

educating people about the character of the people that they do business with is certainly not a waste of my time.

so you think you are doing people a favor by 'educating' them about someone elses character? quite frankly i am perfectly capable of forming my own opinions of people without anyone elses help... i guess it doesnt matter too much, because when i make an opinion of people, i base that opinion off the interactions i have had with them personally, not someone bashing someone over an internet forum. i would certainly hope that no one else would just base an opinion off someones ranting and bashing online

[skianddive]

so you think you are doing people a favor by 'educating' them about someone elses character? quite frankly i am perfectly capable of forming my own opinions of people without anyone elses help... i guess it doesnt matter too much, because when i make an opinion of people, i base that opinion off the interactions i have had with them personally, not someone bashing someone over an internet forum. i would certainly hope that no one else would just base an opinion off someones ranting and bashing online

There will be no ranting and bashing - I will only be delivering facts so that people can make better, informed decisions. I, too, used to be like you - young and ignorant - and formed my opinions based on my gut feelings from interacting with people. I did the same with Rich back when we met in 2004 and the times I saw him in 2005/2006, and during those times, he seemed OK.

But it was one of the few times in my life that my gut was wrong. Others on this Forum have had the same unfortunate experience because when you really get to know the REAL Rich Carlson and know how he deals with people who question him, all bets are off.

You'll learn - most people always do! If nothing else, you'll be forewarned and, hopefully, more cautious.

[DWayne27]

I, too, used to be like you - young and ignorant...

apparently you see no need in knowing someone or having any personal interactions with them to form opinions about them? it seems that the only thing you would know about me is that i seem to be standing up for rich. anyone that stands up for rich, or seems to like/respect him, or perhaps more accurately, anyone who disagrees with you, must be ignorant?

[Don]

I guess I'd say I'm still a beginner canyoneer. I've done a few canyons, mostly with my close friends. I've met a few a the big dogs, but aside from Rich's training area near Cedar, only in the bar or around the campfire, never done a real canyon with any of 'em.
I've seen the canyon folks get into these pissing matches before and stayed out of it because I'm the noob and have nothing to contribute to the argument and I thought there might even be something I could learn about the big dogs and how things are done.
It's too bad though that even the noob is pretty tired of it.

[oldno7]

I've noticed most of the time when someone tries to educate people about another, they end up revealing more about themselves.

Carry-on

[ratagonia]

I've noticed most of the time when someone tries to educate people about another, they end up revealing more about themselves.

Carry-on

Ah, yes, the old nugget, which could be slightly adjusted:

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt . -- George Eliot

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.-- Abraham Lincoln (also attr. Confucius)

It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.-- Mark Twain (1835-1910)

Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding. -- Bible, 'Proverbs' 17:28.

Or perhaps, as my mother said, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all."

T

[oldno7]

I've noticed most of the time when someone tries to educate people about another, they end up revealing more about themselves.

Carry-on

Ah, yes, the old nugget, which could be slightly adjusted:

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt . -- George Eliot

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.-- Abraham Lincoln (also attr. Confucius)

It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.-- Mark Twain (1835-1910)

Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding. -- Bible, 'Proverbs' 17:28.

Or perhaps, as my mother said, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all."

T

And can we add to that the Serenity Prayer:

GOD, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

[skianddive]

Or perhaps, as my mother said, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all."

Kelsey would be so proud of your apparent hypocrisy.

[DWayne27]

Or perhaps, as my mother said, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all."

Kelsey would be so proud of your apparent hypocrisy.

does that have anything to do with THIS thread

[skianddive]

And what issues would those be? That ignorance is bliss? That you don't want to read the facts? That some people don't want to read them?

Great! Then don't come back here Monday and read my post. Ignore this thread completely. That's the best way for you and Don - just stick your heads in the sand, and everything will be OK.

People disagreeing with me????

[skianddive]

Or perhaps, as my mother said, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all."

Kelsey would be so proud of your apparent hypocrisy.

does that have anything to do with THIS thread

Sure does! Just commenting on Tom's quotes WHICH are in this thread.

Reading is fundamental.

[skianddive]

apparently you see no need in knowing someone or having any personal interactions with them to form opinions about them? it seems that the only thing you would know about me is that i seem to be standing up for rich. anyone that stands up for rich, or seems to like/respect him, or perhaps more accurately, anyone who disagrees with you, must be ignorant?

Did you even read anything I wrote? Did you read that I knew Rich and had many personal interactions with him? And that I initially formed incorrect opinions of Rich because I did not know all the facts about him.

Reading is fundamental!

If you want to like/respect him and stand up for him, and put him on that pedestal that he oh so loves, that's OK with me. I realize that you are just doing it out of ignorance. Notice I did not say stupidity - there is a difference.

[Randi]

Others on this Forum have had the same unfortunate experience because when you really get to know the REAL Rich Carlson and know how he deals with people who question him, all bets are off.

Hmmmm

[Don]

And what issues would those be? That ignorance is bliss? That you don't want to read the facts? That some people don't want to read them?

Great! Then don't come back here Monday and read my post. Ignore this thread completely. That's the best way for you and Don - just stick your heads in the sand, and everything will be OK.

People disagreeing with me????

What did I say? How did I get called out? I just commented that the old arguments are old, even to me, a relatively new guy.

Not trying to make an accusation, but it seems like many other people get along pretty well with Randi, or Rich, or whomever you're pissed at today (me?), could it be that these people are reacting to you and what you have to say in a negative way because of what it is you are saying?

[Randi]

And what issues would those be? That ignorance is bliss? That you don't want to read the facts? That some people don't want to read them?

Great! Then don't come back here Monday and read my post. Ignore this thread completely. That's the best way for you and Don - just stick your heads in the sand, and everything will be OK.

People disagreeing with me????

What did I say? How did I get called out? I just commented that the old arguments are old, even to me, a relatively new guy.

Not trying to make an accusation, but it seems like many other people get along pretty well with Randi, or Rich, or whomever you're pissed at today (me?), could it be that these people are reacting to you and what you have to say in a negative way because of what it is you are saying?

I'm changing my wager to "it's gonna be Don".
I bet $10 Bogley Bucks!