HITR - January 09

[ExpUt]

... that I get pissed and have a rebellious attitude. I have mentioned 3 areas that I can't for the life of me figure out why they were closed...

Do your own research, look it up. I don't have the answers, I don't know why the speed limit is 65 either... but do you think constantly speeding is going to make them want to raise the limit. Absolutely not.

I've already told you why the Rincon is closed, because it was never officially opened. It was a privately built road accessing a private mine claim, the park service took over the land with the creation of GCNRA and never considered it a route. All your rogue actions will do nothing to change that and only stand to hurt it.

...You have the submissive attitude of beg and plead to get them back.

Do I? Your right I've never spent my weekends performing trail repair, trail patrol, general cleanups, blocking bypasses so an area doesn't because cause for closure. Don't think for a second you know what my attitude is, I'm 100% proactive in keeping trails open, both with my actions and my wallet... but when in the end a trail is closed I don't think my selfish actions are the best recourse for the situation. Trails have been re-opened. Research your precious Factory Butte and see what the extensive user comments did for that area (re-opened a TON of land that was closed due to the endangered plant they were worried about).

...Since you are in the know of every damn rule and ordinance that gets passed as it pertains to OHV use, who the hell gets to be the recipient of a nasty letter about why the Rincon was closed?

Work with me Reedus, I don't want to have to spell it out with crayons for you. The Rincon has been officially closed for over 30 years. Why don't you take some initiative and make a phone call and ask why they chose not to have it as an official route. Don't place the burden on someone else, if your planning to travel there, do some research for heavens sake.

...And do you really think the person reading the letter is going to give a flying phuck about what I think?

The person(s) reading the Factory Butte letters sure cared, and I'd like to think all the letters to the Price, Moab, Richfield, Vernal and Blanding field offices made a difference in their RMP planning too. Can you imagine what would have happened if all motorized users could burden their lives for a few minutes and a few bucks to get involved.

... Call me a lazy fat bastard...

Your a lazy fat bastard. However all add to that a selfish apathetic douche canoe too.

...but knowingly riding my bike down the Rincon is worth the ticket I may possibly get if NPS catches me. So lazy in fact that I wouldn't bother fighting it in court, I would pay the fine nad move on.

And you would knowlingly be spitting in the faces of those that have worked to save trails for you all over the state, including those that are working to get the NPS to recognize this route.

...Unlike you, I don't have the time to be up on every little detail of every trail that is in negotiation with the government...

You have the time to bitch in this thread, in fact you've spent more time in this thread than it would have taken to become educated on some of the major issues we as motorized users face here in Utah right now, future closures possibilities, future litigation, volunteer needs, etc. It doesn't take much time, just takes some initiative, you apparently have none.

[fouristhenewone]

I just gotta say HUZZAH for ExpUT, and Reedus, well...you can't say "the man made it so I can't drive wherever the f*&^ I please, and f*&^ soil and the people who care about it" and then claim to be a responsible OHV owner. you clearly are the douchebag that you come off as...

[Reedus]

You're right, I have no initiative. Game over I am done here.



Douche canoe...
Haven't heard that one before

[Reedus]

Fouristhequeerone:

I like your signature. I have some tannerite you could use to tear down your dam and build up your dreams. Hit me PM

[fouristhenewone]

Deer Reedus - attacks on my sexual orientation, well,, their kind of gay. and thanks but no thanks on the tannerite. I'm busy training dolphins to tow barges full of tnt...it's taking a while, but I'm sure it'll pay off, hell, worst it can do is give you some more dry soil to drive over, right?

[ExpUt]

You're right, I have no initiative. Game over I am done here....

Don't bow out, bow in. If you take nothing other from this thread, spend a few bucks and join the Blue Ribbon Coalition:

http://www.sharetrails.org/

Then, find an OHV group in your area to join, this would be close to home:
http://www.seuohvclub.org/

[Scott P]

We are on the same page when it comes to off trail riding. I don't go around as Scott claimed "tearing up the land" with no regard to the effects. I stay on trail/roads and play by the rules in that aspect.

I got that impression from discussions and post from you dating back two or three years ago. In one post you said that there was nothing wrong with a bunch of ATV's tearing through the Chute and another similar one pertaining to Upper Muddy Creek. Both are in WSA's and neither has ever had a road through. Whether the statements were meant to be serious or tongue in cheek, I don't know, but with statements similar to the ones made in this thread for example, it seems like you really do want to ride off trail.

It is when roads/trails that have existed for a LONG time are shut down that I get pissed and have a rebellious attitude.

Same thing has happened to many former great hiking trails/routes because they have been turned to ATV routes. I already mentioned the Devils Racetrack. It used to be a really special place to visit (for those whom like wilderness at least) before it was turned into a road/ATV track. As far as I know, it never was a historic road, but a recent creation. Ponderosa Cove in the Swell is yet another example of a formerly pristine roadless area that was recently trashed by off-trail use from OHV's.

As far as Factory Butte goes, my father was in the second group in history to run Muddy Creek (he ran it in a canoe only one week after the first run). That was only a few decades ago and I remember him speaking of how wild and special the area was. Even as recently 1987, the book Utah Wildlands (see page 84) has some wonderful photos of Factory Butte in pristine condition and says the following:

Factory Butte sits in a vast roadless area reaching north from the Fremont River into the heart of the San Rafael Swell. In every direction the landscape is astounding: solitary buttes, thousand-foot clifflines, rainbow-colored badlands, dark volcanic mountains and narrow "reefs" of tilted sedimentary rock.

That was written (and the photos were taken) in 1987. Others such as Steve Allen and friends have been visiting since the 1960's. You say that you are angry (and you are entitled to your own opinion) about some areas around Factory Butte being recently closed because they have been open for "a LONG time". If that is why you are angry, what about the people whom have been visiting the same area for many decades and before it became trashed by ATV's? They had been visiting the area for "a long time" back when it was roadless and pristine. Doesn't it work both ways and can't they be upset too?

In my eyes I can actually see both sides of the arguement for Factory Butte (it was actually closed for a type of cactus, not wilderness designation), but not in places that were more recently trashed such as Ponderosa Cove, Devils Racetrack or any of the new tracks between I-70 and Lone Tree Crossing for example. They are new creations and if so in my own opinion (obviously others disagree) since so many new tracks have been opened and are being used it is only fair that some old ones might be closed everyonce in a while, at least as long as all these new ones start popping up. As pointed out on another thread, there are literally hundreds of new tracks that have popped up in recent decades in formerly roadless areas. On the other thread I even provided coordinates and google earth photos as well as even span of dates some were created in of just some of the newly created tracks out there. It is my feeling that there are already plenty of roads and tracks out there that can be used before making new ones or before riding off-trail. I'm not against roads at all (I'm a highway engineer); I just don't see the need for a bunch of new tracks in every roadless or formerly roadless area out there. Although people here disagree, since there are so many new roads and tracks being created out there, I even don't see any problem with closing a few old ones to compensate for the loss of roadless areas.

[scoutabout]

I think I am looking at it from a different angle than you.

Your "angle" results in additional closures.

I stay on trail/roads and play by the rules in that aspect.

You've already mentioned in this thread (and others) that you don't go by the rules or stay on designated roads/trails.

It is when roads/trails that have existed for a LONG time are shut down that I get pissed and have a rebellious attitude.

You might as well be donating cash to one of the many groups trying to eradicate motorized recreation from public lands.

I have mentioned 3 areas that I can't for the life of me figure out why they were closed.

The number one reason for motorized route closure is irresponsible users causing resource damage. Please refer to a mirror for more information.

You have the submissive attitude of beg and plead to get them back.

No, he doesn't. He has the proactive attitude of being involved in the process to save existing routes while trying to re-open historic routes that have been closed.

My attitude is it is my land and they have no reason for shutting it down to motorized use and I will continue to use it as I had done before.

This is the attitude that CAUSES closures.

Give me some valid reasons of why it was shut down and I might have a change of attitude. "they decided" just doesn't cut it.

You need to educate yourself. Land managers don't "decide" to close routes on a whim. By law, they are required to perform appropriate analysis before closing or opening a route. If you spent anytime volunteering with the BLM or FS in support of motorized recreation, you would have learned this.

Since you are in the know of every damn rule and ordinance that gets passed as it pertains to OHV use, who the hell gets to be the recipient of a nasty letter about why the Rincon was closed?

There are 11 BLM units (including GSENM) and 5 Forest units (after the Wasatch/Uinta merger) in the state of Utah. Use a map. It's very, very simple.

And do you really think the person reading the letter is going to give a flying phuck about what I think?

Based on your comments so far, your letter would probably confirm that closure was the right decision. Thanks for helping the cause.

...but knowingly riding my bike down the Rincon is worth the ticket I may possibly get if NPS catches me.

Wow. To the SUWA, Wilderness Society and Sierra Club operatives reading this thread: this guy does NOT represent the majority of motorized recreation users.

Unlike you, I don't have the time to be up on every little detail of every trail that is in negotiation with the governemnt ( contrary to my previous claim of wiping my ass with it)

Hmm. ExpUt put it best. Your bullshit attitude and behavior are a slap in the face to the handful of people dedicating their personal time to protecting motorized access in Utah. It's very demotivating to see your comments and think that there might be others out there who share the same opinions as you do. Your comments and behavior undo the hard work we put in during the year to protect motorized access to public lands.

[scoutabout]

It used to be a really special place to visit (for those whom like wilderness at least) before it was turned into a road/ATV track.

It still is a special place.

Although people here disagree, since there are so many new roads and tracks being created out there, I even don't see any problem with closing a few old ones to compensate for the loss of roadless areas.

Should we close hiking routes for every switchback that gets cut by a lazy hiker? Should we close old hiking routes whenever new miles are established. We have enough hiking routes in America, the number of miles should definitely remain static.

[Scott P]

Scoutabout, I agree to your post above to Reedus. Even though we disagree with each other on many issues I agree with every point.

Here are my honest answers to your questions and comments directed towards me.

Should we close hiking routes for every switchback that gets cut by a lazy hiker?

At a minimum we should close the switchbacks that were created by people being lazy. Fines and punishments for those shortcutting switchbacks should be increased.

Should we close old hiking routes whenever new miles are established?

It happens on a regular basis, so don

[Reedus]

Offense? None taken, even the name calling by ExpUT. Again, I am out of line if I really sit down and think about it, but my comments in this thread are a build up of frustration over the few last years of roads being closed that were once open or at least no one cared about OHV use on them. Being rebellious isn't the best method of tackling it, but sometimes my anti-authority personality comes out.

Reedus aka "The Douche Canoe"

[scoutabout]

Again, I am out of line if I really sit down and think about it, but my comments in this thread are a build up of frustration over the few last years of roads being closed that were once open or at least no one cared about OHV use on them. Being rebellious isn't the best method of tackling it, but sometimes my anti-authority personality comes out.

Instead of driving off trail or blowing up campers to vent your frustrations over closures, get your sorry ass involved in the fight to save motorized access. Scott P and his friends want to ELIMINATE motorized recreation on public lands (except the dirt roads leading to their crypto-killing hiking trails and rock-scarring canyoneering routes). You are helping them with this goal.

[Sombeech]

[ExpUt]

...Reedus aka "The Douche Canoe"

You gotta admit it has a nice ring to it

[Scott P]

Scott P and his friends want to ELIMINATE motorized recreation on public lands

Yeah; that's why I probably spend more time on the 4wd roads than you do. I used 4wd roads for recreational purposes on 36 days last year. Yes; I do log everything and can provide a list and yes on many of the trips I also did hikes. In fact the only time I ever use my SUV is if I have to use 4wd, so if you count the total mileage it isn't as great as some out there.

You know the statement above isn't true, so why claim it? I even took your side on many of the issues in this thread.

[scoutabout]

Scott P and his friends want to ELIMINATE motorized recreation on public lands

Yeah; that's why I probably spend more time on the 4wd roads than you do. I used 4wd roads for recreational purposes on 36 days last year. Yes; I do log everything and can provide a list.

Me too. I think it's a lot of fun to review the log at the end of the year and recall all the great adventures.

You beat me this year. I've been working out of state (Texas), and I spent 44 total nights in Utah in 2008. Of those 44, I was on the trail for 19. I don't count graded county roads leading to hiking trailheads as "4wd roads" although they do meet the technical definition.

You know the statement above isn't true, so why claim it? I even took your side on many of the issues.

We are on the same side as we both believe that excessive impact and resource damage is unacceptable. I believe that the 4x4 adventure begins when you get off the graded county road. That's not where it ends.

[Scott P]

I don't count graded county roads leading to hiking trailheads as "4wd roads" although they do meet the technical definition.

Neither do I. In fact if graded county roads count then nearly every day I drive (I don't drive nearly close to every day because I can shop and get to work by foot or bike) would count. I do live in a very rural area you know.

Anyway, here are some of the 4wd roads I drove last year and they are not graded county roads, though some are rougher than others. I'll just list some of the well known ones.

December 6: With tire chains, made it all the way to 10,600 feet on the Lake Fork Road (CO). Not bad for December.

November 28: Gemini Bridges and Long Canyon (UT). Only did a short hike around Gemini Bridges. The rest was for fun. Not rough ones, but fun, scenic and I like them.

November 23: Got a flat tire on the Serviceberry Road in Dino National Monument. It was a side trip to an overlook and I wish this time we would have stuck to the county road since the flat tire on the very rough road was one reason we got stranded at night on our voluntary quest to find the bighorn collar for the park service/division of wildlife. Definitely not a graded county road.

October 25: It was to get to a hike, but the Indian Rock/Bald Mountain Basin Road (CO) is very rough at least for mostly stock SUV

[nelsonccc]

Lots of people??? Try EVERYONE who does the HITR trail on an OHV does not have street legal tags. The place is so damned remote that you are highly unlikely to encounter any NPS ranger. They sure as hell don't patrol the trail itself and any encounter with any enforcement officer would be from a boat on the lake, in which case they don't have the means to come after you. And for those who say you can't outrun the radios, there is nobody to friggin call. The closet town is probably Blanding which is 60+ miles away. The logistics for enforcing whether or not someone has proper registration on their bike or whether they should or shouldn't be down on the Rincon with them is not feasible. I for one will continue to ride my unlicensed steel horse on the HITR down to the Rincon. If a NPS ranger stops me, it is "sorry man, ya gotta post it if you don't want people down there." And if by chance they do post it, I am still going down there and I will wipe my ass with the ticket. That pretty much somes up how I feel about the dickweeds who think they can just close down a road that existed LONG before Lake Powell was a pipe dream

+1.
It sounds like you didn't know it was closed. Probably isnt. It's always seems unclear and never spelled out clearly if an area is open or not. No worries. I do my best to avoid the areas that are closed and do as much due diligence as possible before going but sometimes you can't know everything. I once ended up in an area that was closed. I didn't know. The desert ranger guy told me nothing to worry about and then we spent 45 minutes talking about loopholes for all of the 'closed' areas. He says that unless its posted and clearly documented on a map that there isn't much you can do about it. But I do know a guy who got ticketed on the Paiute trail for $200 so I try to be careful.

Let me know the next time you go. I'd gladly go with you. In fact i've got a big Vegas crowd that has been looking at that trail. I'll hit you sideband to get the details.

[ExpUt]

...Probably isn't....

Remind me where you are getting your info? We've provided links that state that is closed, lets see some of your links that show it "probably isn't". I'm the first one that wants this trail open, but ignorance isn't valid.

A group of us have been looking into this, Alan Peterson from MotoUtah (and a literal savior of trails in the Price area), has sent an email to the county asking for clarification on this and several other trails within the GLNRA. I'll be sure to report back.

"Bending" the laws might work for your outdoor ethic, but when it impedes the hard work of others, it doesn't work for mine. We all know how long it takes to make a "posted" trail... well, un-posted. And that is no longer the way things work with these new RMP's, its to be considered closed unless posted open. Its sad it came to this but blatant abuses and disregard for laws forced the hand.

[anderson750]

[quote="Scott P"]

Same thing has happened to many former great hiking trails/routes because they have been turned to ATV routes. I already mentioned the Devils Racetrack. It used to be a really special place to visit (for those whom like wilderness at least) before it was turned into a road/ATV track. As far as I know, it never was a historic road, but a recent creation.

Not true.

Devils Race Track has been used since 1875. It was first discovered by Joe Swasey and most likely his three brothers. Devils Race Track was used to move livestock and people from Ferron to the Head of Sinbad. Wheeled vehicles have been using this trail prior to 1900. The family of Joe Swasey has a picture of him in a horse drawn carriage (with four wheels) going down Devil's Race track prior to 1900.