HITR - January 09

[Scott P]

If a NPS ranger stops me, it is "sorry man, ya gotta post it if you don't want people down there." And if by chance they do post it, I am still going down there and I will wipe my ass with the ticket. That pretty much somes up how I feel about the dickweeds who think they can just close down a road that existed LONG before Lake Powell was a pipe dream

In the past you also claim that it's prefectly OK to ride an OHV off trail through a WSA in areas where no road has ever existed. You also claim it's OK to blow things up on public land and leave a huge mess. And now eveyone else is the "dickweed"? Somehow I'm even wondering if you really are serious about blowing up Delicate Arch if you knew you wouldn't get caught.

Keep in mind that even if the existing road to Rincon was closed decades ago for the Glen Canyon National Recreation Area, hundreds of miles of what was pristine wilderness was also lost to the GCNRA. Lake Powell should stay, but if a few routes were closed in compensation for the huge loss in wild areas, what's wrong with that? New roads (both legal and illegal) have popped up all over the place down there. Aren't even a few routes that were closed years ago fair compensation?

I am suprised there isn't a sign at the trail head.

Anyway, at least some of those routes were posted closed to motor vehicles. San Juan County and a certain ATV group (whom shall remain nameless) went and took down the signs.

GCNRA is already super-geared towards motorized recreation whether it be motorboats, jetskis, 4wd's and even some ATV areas (and I agree it should be). Now every single inch of it has to be open to ATV's as well?

Anyway, last time I was in the area (May 2008) there was much illegal off trail damage (where no road has ever existed) in the immediate area and within the GCNRA. Here is a photo I took of some of the damage next to a waterfall. Same group also rode up the midden heaps at the indian ruins (Dave Pitenal took photos of that too).

Guess I'm just a dickweed for disagreeing with such activity.

[fourtycal]

Lots of people??? Try EVERYONE who does the HITR trail on an OHV does not have street legal tags. The place is so damned remote that you are highly unlikely to encounter any NPS ranger. They sure as hell don't patrol the trail itself and any encounter with any enforcement officer would be from a boat on the lake, in which case they don't have the means to come after you. And for those who say you can't outrun the radios, there is nobody to friggin call. The closet town is probably Blanding which is 60+ miles away. The logistics for enforcing whether or not someone has proper registration on their bike or whether they should or shouldn't be down on the Rincon with them is not feasible. I for one will continue to ride my unlicensed steel horse on the HITR down to the Rincon. If a NPS ranger stops me, it is "sorry man, ya gotta post it if you don't want people down there." And if by chance they do post it, I am still going down there and I will wipe my ass with the ticket. That pretty much somes up how I feel about the dickweeds who think they can just close down a road that existed LONG before Lake Powell was a pipe dream

I'm right there with you. I will always consider that trail grandfathered in by early pioneers. It's a historic place and should be left accessible.

All of this type of malarkey is why I put tiny blinkers and a license plate on my dirtbike

[Scott P]

I will always consider that trail grandfathered in by early pioneers. It's a historic place and should be left accessible.

So it's not OK for the National Park Service to close an old road decades ago in compensation for the hundreds of new ones that have been opened, even through WSA's (such as the Devils Racetrack for example)? Gotcha.

Anyway, I'll stop now but I do have to say that the ones riding illegally are the ones causing the rest of us to join wilderness groups and causes. The more people that obey the law (on either side) then the less animosity towards other groups. Hundreds of new roads and tracks are popping up all over the place, but whenever an obscure mining track that has been closed for decades remains so, people balk and use it illegally anyway. If people would quit creating all these new tracks their wouldn't be a problem.

Anyway, I'll end the soap box here, but no matter which side of the fence you are on, personally I think it's best to obey the law (and I agree that some people on both sides do break the law).

[Reedus]

My gripes with the NPS and other government bullshit beaurocratic instituitons comes from where I grew up. I am an Emery county native and at one time, I could leave my house on a dirt bike and ride out on the Swell where I wanted. The muddy gorge was always a good loop ride. Now everything is closed down in the name of bullshit wilderness areas and people crying over crypto soil that gets damaged. What the hell has society come to when tears are shed over f*&%$$ soil? Same with Factory Butte. I used to love to ride there because it was so remote and wide open. Now it is "wilderness" From my stand point of where I grew up and the places I rode, a lot has been taken away and nothing given back. The only ace I have left as far as I am concerned is that areas such as the Swell and Wilson's mesa are so big, that you couldn't begin to enforce anything. That is what it is headed to. The government will continue to close down areas in the name of wilderness but they just won't have the man power to enforce it. Where is my rebel flag icon when I need it?

[Scott P]

at one time, I could leave my house on a dirt bike and ride out on the Swell where I wanted.

I

[ExpUt]

Lots of people??? Try EVERYONE who does the HITR trail on an OHV does not have street legal tags. The place is so damned remote that you are highly unlikely to encounter any NPS ranger. They sure as hell don't patrol the trail itself and any encounter with any enforcement officer would be from a boat on the lake, in which case they don't have the means to come after you. And for those who say you can't outrun the radios, there is nobody to friggin call. The closet town is probably Blanding which is 60+ miles away. The logistics for enforcing whether or not someone has proper registration on their bike or whether they should or shouldn't be down on the Rincon with them is not feasible. I for one will continue to ride my unlicensed steel horse on the HITR down to the Rincon. If a NPS ranger stops me, it is "sorry man, ya gotta post it if you don't want people down there." And if by chance they do post it, I am still going down there and I will wipe my ass with the ticket. That pretty much somes up how I feel about the dickweeds who think they can just close down a road that existed LONG before Lake Powell was a pipe dream

We are right back to you being an oxygen thief.

Your the same type of ignorant motorized users that are ruining it for those of us that actually spend a few minute researching the areas we are heading to. Do you honestly want there to be signs for everything in this world. How about we legalize responsibility. "Cliff Ahead", "Steep hill ahead", "deep sand in 12 ft", "hot water", "cold water ahead". Get real. Guess what an NPS or BLM officer is going to do if they catch you, write you a ticked, your ignorance won't exclude you. I for one hope it happens to you.

NO SIGN IS NOT AN EXCUSE! There isn't sign around your neck stating that we shouldn't punch you in the throat, is that a valid excuse. You make me sick, such a lazy enthusiast.

I'll be honest, motorized users like you shouldn't wear helmet either. Do you realize this is EXACTLY whey they close trails and refuse to reopen them. Everyone things "if they leave it open we won't have to break the law", rather guys like you just continue to push the limits and drive where ever you want, afterall, there wasn't a sign. Heaven forbid one of your group takes the 5 minutes of searching it would take to find an answer, your too busy f**king up your next destination.

PS. Where in the f**k are the GPS coords for your last disaster you kept saying you were going to pm me? Come spring I still expect you out there with us cleaning it up.

[ExpUt]

... I'm right there with you. I will always consider that trail grandfathered in by early pioneers. It's a historic place and should be left accessible...

Really? The pioneers were still there in 1958 when that road was built? I knew the San Juan Mission took months longer than anticipated, but nearly 70 years. No shit.

The Rincon Trail was built in 1958 to reach a Uranium claim on the river. The Uranium claim actually predated the road, they initially reached it by an old airstrip. We'll have to make sure to get a sign "No Landing, Deep Water" for the Reedus of the air.

[ExpUt]

...The government will continue to close down areas in the name of wilderness...

Only when ignorant and apethetic users such as youself show their true faces. If all of the motorized users would get involved in the land use scene and more importantly get educated, the tide would turn.

...but they just won't have the man power to enforce it....

The don't need to. User groups like Right Rider and Trail Patrol are taking photos. I'd be the first to turn you in for being such a douche bag. Its one thing to make an honest mistake and visit a trail you didn't know was closed... once. Its another to knowingly be a motoized f**ktard because you don't think they have the manpower to enforce the laws.

Bet you'd rape a 12 year old boy if you knew you wouldn't get caught. "But officer, he didn't have a sign on his ass".

[Reedus]

Wow, I think I hit a nerve.

Edit: Never once did I say I tear off trail and tear things up. I just choose to ignore bullshit laws that close down perfectly good roads that do no harm. Give me one reason the almighty NPS has to shut down the Rincon. Two headed horny toads down there that need protecting? Lets have your reasoning. And keep it nice. I haven't called you names.

[ExpUt]

Wow, I think I hit a nerve. Piss off is all I have to say.

Nerve, your right. Ignorant and selfish users do strike a nerve. Your comments are reflective of your true nature.

New Sign:

"No Pissing Off Here"

[Reedus]

You seriously need to calm down man. How bout one of those examples of why the Rincon was open and now is closed. Why you are at it, give me a reason why the road through the muddy gorge got closed.

[Reedus]

P.S - the 5 mile pass disaster has been cleaned up. I went out there to get exact coordinates and the mess was gone, all of it. I figured it was you who came out and cleaned up after me?

[ExpUt]

You seriously need to calm down man. How bout one of those examples of why the Rincon was open and now is closed. Why you are at it, give me a reason why the road through the muddy gorge got closed.

I don't need to give you the answers, your mind is already made up. And we can all bet our lives that you and your cohorts did absolutely NOTHING when these closures were actually happening. Didn't attend public scoping and hearing meetings, didn't join an advocacy group promoting responsible recreation and advocating for the trails to stay open, didn't write a congressman or make a phone call to a BLM office. You just say on your ass and figured "they'll never catch me, I'm Reedus, I can out run a radio".

I don't know the particulars behind the routes. I'll guess that with the Rincon route, it was never considered a public ROW and when the Park Service took control of the land, they chose not to consider it a route. Yeah it sucks, believe me, I hate it as much as the next user, I spend nearly 100 days in my 4x4 or dirtbike enjoying Utah's public lands. Do you honestly think I want these routes closed. Of course not. Is it fair, I don't think so, but being ignorant isn't going to fix that.

But beyond that I don't want rogue users f-ing up the relationships and progress the advocacy groups and clubs are working on with the land managers. I also don't want the anti-motorized crowd using your words and actions to form a picture of the entire motorized community. Make no mistake, you and your type are the minority, but the actions of 5% are clearly destroying the good intentions and hard work of the other 95%. Now that's not fair.

[ExpUt]

P.S - the 5 mile pass disaster has been cleaned up. I went out there to get exact coordinates and the mess was gone, all of it. I figured it was you who came out and cleaned up after me?

Who knows, it was probably the private land owner that spent his time and money cleaning up your disaster. I still want to know where its at. Your outdoor ethic preceded you, I'm not going to take your word that its been cleaned up. Don't be shy, be honest.

[Reedus]

40 degrees 12.910
112 degrees 08.447

and it was BLM, not private. Private land started about a half mile from where the shit hit the fan.

[Reedus]

As for attending the meetings...
How in the hell is one supposed to find out about stuff like that? I never hear about it. I find out when I go out riding and all of a sudden an area is closed down. I never have seen a sign on the Rincon that said it was closed. Why wouldn't the NPS put a big ole bulletin board up at the HITR trail head like they do now at the swell that shows maps of where you can and cannot ride? Same with Factory Butte, rode down there for years and then we show up one day and it is posted closed to motorized use. You can bet your ass if I knew an area that I loved to ride on was being considered for closure, I would be at those meetings and voice the same concerns I have stated on here

[ExpUt]

40 degrees 12.910
112 degrees 08.447

and it was BLM, not private. Private land started about a half mile from where the shit hit the fan.

Thanks.

I really don't want to have this back and forth banter with you Reedus, but you seriously need to grasp how counter-productive this behavior is to the future of motorized recreation on public lands. You have no clue how many thousands of hours are volunteered all over Utah to keep grasps on the limited trails we have... the RR4W and their countless hours & $$$ all over the Moab region, the moto groups and their work in the 5MOH and Factory Butte areas (which due to public comments during the recent RMP was re-opened on a large scale), the OHV groups in Price that worked their butts off mapping the routes for the new travel map, I could go on for hours. I seriously feel like your actions are spitting in the face of all those hard workers that are out there spending their time cleaning up the messes of others.

[Skylinerider]

As for attending the meetings...
How in the hell is one supposed to find out about stuff like that? I never hear about it. I find out when I go out riding and all of a sudden an area is closed down. I never have seen a sign on the Rincon that said it was closed. Why wouldn't the NPS put a big ole bulletin board up at the HITR trail head like they do now at the swell that shows maps of where you can and cannot ride? Same with Factory Butte, rode down there for years and then we show up one day and it is posted closed to motorized use. You can bet your ass if I knew an area that I loved to ride on was being considered for closure, I would be at those meetings and voice the same concerns I have stated on here

Get involved with a club, read a local paper, stop in at a BLM or USFS office. That's how you find out. they're not going to call everyone and tell them the Rincon is closed. Man up and be responsible for your own actions.

[ExpUt]

As for attending the meetings...
How in the hell is one supposed to find out about stuff like that? I never hear about it. I find out when I go out riding and all of a sudden an area is closed down.

Good question. Join a club, join the Blue Ribbon Coalition, join the Utah Trail Machine Association, join MotoUtah. Add your name to the BLM mailing list. Hell, join the SUWA email list, at least you'll hear about upcoming litigation, closures and calls for public comment.

...I never have seen a sign on the Rincon that said it was closed. Why wouldn't the NPS put a big ole bulletin board up at the HITR trail head like they do now at the swell that shows maps of where you can and cannot ride?

Wait a second? Is this the same Reedus that told us his "ace" was riding wherever he wanted in the Swell because they don't have the means to enforce it? You said the same for a sign on the HITR remember, it was today afterall. I don't get you

I too wish they had more trail head signage (kiosks), not just at HITR, all over the state. The reality is they are not cheap, they get vandalized, burned and shot up and the public land manages frankly don't have the means and mode to implement them. They need user like you and I to help spread the word. OHV/4x4 groups in Moab have installed trailhead signs all over, the Canyon Country 4x4 Club in Kanab the same. RockyMountainExtreme and the U4WDA installed dozens of kiosks and trail signs in the 5MP area. OHV and dirtbike groups have been in Factory Butte for the last few months installing signs and building fences at the newly expanded riding area. A drop in the bucket, but a start.

..Same with Factory Butte, rode down there for years and then we show up one day and it is posted closed to motorized use. You can bet your ass if I knew an area that I loved to ride on was being considered for closure, I would be at those meetings and voice the same concerns I have stated on here

Dude, it was posted all over here on Bogley. The RMP's were heavily discussed and debated here, we talked about comments, and everything. We can't spoonfeed you, take some initiative. Click a link, read a map, make a phone call, wipe your own ass (with a ticket if you prefer).

Get involved.

[Reedus]

I think I am looking at it from a different angle than you. We are on the same page when it comes to off trail riding. I don't go around as Scott claimed "tearing up the land" with no regard to the effects. I stay on trail/roads and play by the rules in that aspect. It is when roads/trails that have existed for a LONG time are shut down that I get pissed and have a rebellious attitude. I have mentioned 3 areas that I can't for the life of me figure out why they were closed. You have the submissive attitude of beg and plead to get them back. My attitude is it is my land and they have no reason for shutting it down to motorized use and I will continue to use it as I had done before. Give me some valid reasons of why it was shut down and I might have a change of attitude. "they decided" just doesn't cut it. Since you are in the know of every damn rule and ordinance that gets passed as it pertains to OHV use, who the hell gets to be the recipient of a nasty letter about why the Rincon was closed? And do you really think the person reading the letter is going to give a flying phuck about what I think? Call me a lazy fat bastard, but knowingly riding my bike down the Rincon is worth the ticket I may possibly get if NPS catches me. So lazy in fact that I wouldn't bother fighting it in court, I would pay the fine nad move on. Unlike you, I don't have the time to be up on every little detail of every trail that is in negotiation with the governemnt ( contrary to my previous claim of wiping my ass with it)