The Totem

[Iceaxe]

Thoughts? Comments?


Designers claim... `The Totem is the "Swiss Army Knife" of rappelling and rigging devices.'

[hank moon]

What? No PEZ dispenser? Free canyoneering technique manual with purchase?



One quasi-serious thought: as the device has several different rope paths, I wonder if rope passing over sharp edges will become a concern as it wears?

[Jaxx]

seems like a cool tool for the tool box. Seems versitile. Would be cool to try out in the garage and see how I like it.
I am a little slow at getting exited about new descending devices after buying the kong hydrobot. I thought it was going to be the best thing in the world. Turns out I couldn't get the right configuration of friction for my weight and I bagged it. It is still at the bottom of the tool box.

Edit: I didn't mean it to sound like I think the totem will be like the hydrobot. I just meant I don't want to get excited before I try it. It looks like a cool device to me. I like the idea of different friction mid rap.

[trackrunner]

One quasi-serious thought: as the device has several different rope paths, I wonder if rope passing over sharp edges will become a concern as it wears?

Isn't this a concern with all decenders

[oldno7]

I was in on the design and initial testing of this product.
It does have many functions from quite simple to more complex.
I think rap devices are a personal thing based off ones comfort level and ability to control yourself in any particular rappel. The "Totem" definitely offers a variety of friction settings as well as functioning as a Gi-Gi.
People that have begun using them are finding new uses at every outing.
Personally I have been using a double eight for sometime and have begun using the Totem in more canyons. I have absolutely no financial stake in this product and only try to answer Shanes question fairly and truthfully.
It is a local product, produced in Utah. I can make one available if anyone wishes to test it out.(but you'll have to come to Cedar)

[hank moon]

Isn't this a concern with all decenders

It is. However, most descenders have a fixed rope path so the rope generally slides inside or in parallel with the wear grooves. I'm not sure, but can imagine that the totem's multiple rope paths might create some rope wear issues. Gotta try one out long-term to judge...

[oldno7]

What? No PEZ dispenser? Free canyoneering technique manual with purchase?



One quasi-serious thought: as the device has several different rope paths, I wonder if rope passing over sharp edges will become a concern as it wears?

All devices will wear no doubt. You'll be glad to know the Aluminum used is harder than the Aluminum used in a Pirana. I know there are none out there that have wear in them yet, beyond taking off some anodizing.

[ratagonia]

All devices will wear no doubt. You'll be glad to know the Aluminum used is harder than the Aluminum used in a Pirana. I know there are none out there that have wear in them yet, beyond taking off some anodizing.

Harder?

Based on personal judgement, or based on a Rockwell Hardness test? I'm sure Rock has a Rockwell up there. Sometimes hard to get an accurate reading on a round surface like the Pirana.

(I don't mean to 'dis you, just looking for a "citation", so folks can judge the accuracy of your information).

Tom

[oldno7]

I'm sure Hank can jump in at any time and give metalurgy documents from the Pirana and hope he will. All I know is Rock first tested the hardness of the European double eights and according to him they were harder than the Pirana. Rich had him make the totems with the same material: 7075 Aircraft Aluminum.

[hank moon]

I'm sure Hank can jump in at any time and give metalurgy documents from the Pirana and hope he will. All I know is Rock first tested the hardness of the European double eights and according to him they were harder than the Pirana. Rich had him make the totems with the same material: 7075 Aircraft Aluminum.

I doubt the Pirana is as hard as 7075, but will try to find out.

[ratagonia]

I'm sure Hank can jump in at any time and give metalurgy documents from the Pirana and hope he will. All I know is Rock first tested the hardness of the European double eights and according to him they were harder than the Pirana. Rich had him make the totems with the same material: 7075 Aircraft Aluminum.

I doubt the Pirana is as hard as 7075, but will try to find out.

The Pirana is made by hot forging, which requires a slightly different alloy, 7001 I think, but there are other choices. European alloy designations use a different system, so might be 'hard' to get an apples to apples comparison. The difference between a 7xxx series forgeable alloy and 7075-T6 tend to be quite small (at most, 5%?).

That said, cutting things out of sheet stock is a good way to go to get maximum harness. The sheet stock is heat treated at the aluminum factory and they tend to do a good job. The aluminum gets harder with aging, as it enjoys the ride across the Pacific on a boat. Cutting does not change the material properties.

On the other hand, even starting with a slightly inferior alloy, Forged parts can also be very dense, and the forging makes sure they are quite compact. Heat-treating in-house, BD was able to achieve somewhat harder results than "industry standard", mostly because (I speculate) the quenching as small parts is very much more effective than the quenching as sheet. Made in Europe, those Pirana's then get a chance to age and harden up on the boat, also.

To get an accurate Rockwell hardness test on the Pirana, you would have to machine flats top and bottom. and the surface would be expected to be slightly harder than the body of the material.

Without actual data, it is difficult to know what the statement "harder than the Pirana" actually means. Rb 96 is harder than Rb 94, but not in any meaningful manner. Such a claim also requires some statistical significance (and should look for variation by batch), and the Rockwell testing would need to be done carefully (ie, milling off flats) rather than casually.

Yes, this is an overly-nuanced analysis. Long story short: Totems are cut from the hardest commercially available aluminum alloy - but they are not significantly harder (most likely) than a Pirana, and therefore people should not have the expectation that they will wear significantly better (based on alloy properties).

I can see them wearing significantly better because there are many different modes of use that might be useful. The Pirana suffers from always having the rope path in the same place - The Totem offers the possibility of moving the rope path around to spread the wear out.

Tom

[oldno7]

Having said all that, Tom. I would have to offer up an opinion.(go figure)

It seems to me that slight differences in a particular devices hardness are probably somewhat outweighed by the interaction of canyon elements the device is used in.

ie. Wet sandy CP canyons that do not allow you to dry out or clean your rope will wear out any metal faster than doing an equal length rappel in a wet canyon composed of granite.

Rope management should always be important to device longevity.

Now--back to my Holiday Inn Express.

[ratagonia]

Having said all that, Tom. I would have to offer up an opinion.(go figure)

It seems to me that slight differences in a particular devices hardness are probably somewhat outweighed by the interaction of canyon elements the device is used in.

ie. Wet sandy CP canyons that do not allow you to dry out or clean your rope will wear out any metal faster than doing an equal length rappel in a wet canyon composed of granite.

Rope management should always be important to device longevity.

Now--back to my Holiday Inn Express.

Absolutely!

Tom

[moab mark]

When does someone actually use all of the different ways a totem could be used? I have only been doing this sport for a few years now but have done quite a few canyons, I have not yet ever needed anything other then a basic rappel device. We rig the rope we go down. What am I missing? It also looks like it could hit you between the legs when dangling. Or more seriously brand the inside of your thigh when hot, ask my buddies wife it hurt.
Mark

[oldno7]

Mark
So your saying "size matters"?

maybe this pic will help some.

[moab mark]

When you click a carabiner in the momma it is going to hang wayyy down. But regardless of that I watched the video and when do you need all that? It also seems like it may be useful for a very experienced guide but for the every day canyoneer its seems overkill?
I do wish that the piranha had a bigger tooth on the top though, maybe someone could redesign that?
Just my 2 cents.
Mark

[moab mark]

I'm bored if you cannot tell. We have bought a bunch of eights for our scouts due to the cost. It is suprising how much trouble they have rigging those over the piranhas. They drop them, they rig them backwards, they forget to clip the big end in when rigging etc. With the piranha they stick the rope through clip into carabiner and away they go. We wish we could back up and would of bit the bullet and just bought piranhas. The totem would be the same way for noobs. Our noobs also struggle with atc's they do not get the rope all the way into the carabiner. I do not let them use them anymore due to a couple of close calls. The piranha seems to be the most versatile for the money? Game is now starting got to go.
Mark

[rcwild]

My ears were burning. Actually, Kurt called.

REGARDING HARDNESS ...
Quite a few people told me they thought their Double Eights were lasting much longer than their Piranas. Rock offered to test a Double Eight for hardness and reported they are made of a harder aluminum, roughly equivalent to 7075. Like the Pirana, the Double Eight is forged. The Totem is machined from a solid slab of 7075.

The Double Eight has another wear advantage over the Pirana. Because it has a hole at each end, the rope path (wear path) can be reversed. The wear path on the Totem can be varied in several ways, so it should last even longer than the Double Eight.

REGARDING THE TOTEM GETTING HOT...
It does not get very hot. Enough metal there to dissipate heat and he holes act a bit like a radiator.

REGARDING DANGLING BETWEEN YOUR LEGS ...
I carry my Totem on a gear loop until I need it. But even if I leave it on the front of my harness, I would rather have it dangling there than a rigid Pirana-carabiner unit with those scrotum-snagging horns sticking out.

RAPPELLING UTILITY ...
It can be rigged dozens of different ways for rappelling, but no one will ever use all of them. That's not the point. Try several different ways and settle in on a couple favorites. Your favorites will be different than another person's. Personally, I've been using it just like a figure eight -- in standard and vertaco modes -- when rappelling on a single strand. I've been using it in modified sticht plate and z-rig modes when rappelling on double strands. A student came up with another way to rig it single strand that might become my new favorite for long rappels because friction can be varied mid-rappel simply by squeezing the upper end of the Totem against the rope with the non-brake hand.

ADDING FRICTION AND LOCKING OFF ...
Even when rigged in plain old figure eight modes, it is incredibly simple to add friction mid rappel and almost idiot-proof for locking off mid-rappel.

ESOTERIC RIGGING SYSTEMS ...
There are a some rigging systems that dazzle those who try them, but should not become anyone's standard. Stop and Go is one example. On those rare occasions when it is appropriate, the Totem really shines because the long slot end provides a lot of leverage for your non-brake hand to move into go position and control speed.

RIGGING THE ROPE ...
If you are rigging releasable eights (contingency anchors) the Totem has a distinct advantage over a regular figure eight. The releasable-under-tension loop can be rigged through one of the slots, which puts in on the opposite side from the lowering-mechanism loop. Eliminates the possibility of binding when you need to lower someone. When used like a GiGI to belay two seconds, rig it with the slots up so the other end can be used for leverage if you need to lower. Rigging a Stone Eight with the ropes looped over the long slot end adds more security than a normal figure eight.

WHAT IT CAN'T DO ...
No Pez dispenser. Sorry Hank. Can't open a bottle of beer or Jack Daniels. Sorry Kurt.

Much more information, testing data, photos, etc. at:

http://canyoneering.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2500

[canyonguru]

i just use a pirana and it does everything i need it to. it is a little anoying that the pirana is a little stiff when atatched to a biner but i just keep a biner cliped into my harness just off to one side. when i am not using the device i just clip it into my biner and it stays out of the way. i also use that biner for my prusik when needed. it works out pretty well.

[Bo_Beck]

Nice Rich and Curt! I do have a bit of concern in the "I don't know what you call it" mode and also in the "stop and go, ascending" modes though. Have you run it over an edge and purposely tried to catch it and flip the backbone over the device and lose the rope entirely from the device? If you don't know what I'm talking about, just Imagine a rigged "8" ring and it sliding over an edge becoming girth hitch locked. Because the rope is captive there is not a chance of it coming free of the devise, but in the 2 modes I mention above; if the rope slips up and over the horn, it will become completely free of the devise? Just curious!?
Bo