I Fell 106 Feet. And Lived.

[ratagonia]

Tom,
On the stone knot pic why do you have a biner block?
Mark

The stone allows you to isolate each strand. Last person unties the stone and can rap down SRT because of the block on the red rope. If the last person went double strand they wouldn't need the biner block.

I've also heard of a figure 8 being used for a "stone 8." I've never done this method so I can't talk about the pros or cons.

That's what I like to see - TEAM WORK!. yeah, what he said, even if he DOES run on TRACKS!

Depends of course. Usually I do the Stone Knot, then as the last person pull it out and either block it then, or rap double. Depends depends depends...

Tom

[Don]

I want to practice knots and anchors. I wonder what my landlord would think about a couple of bolts in the living room wall...

[moab mark]

Put them behind a picture, and then tell the landlord when you leave that the picture looks so nice on that wall he can keep it. I use the banister on the stairs or open a door and use the door knobs they seem to work ok. i tried to place a couple of bolts above the headboard in my bedroom but my wife did not approve. She did not see the humor in this idea.
Mark

[trackrunner]

That's what I like to see - TEAM WORK!. yeah, what he said, even if he DOES run on TRACKS!

Hey I was going to sign up as trailrunner but instead used an old handle name of trackrunner. Second I may be crazy (or stupid) enough to think about running KHeaplay in 24 hours.

[Felicia]

A picture is worth a thousand words...

Taking pictures is better than working, so here's some pictures.

Tom

The pictures are very helpful - thanks!

Don and Mark: my husband mounted anchors, similar to Tom's pictures, on a piece of 2" x 10" board about 20" long. The board is heavier and does not move freely. Also, it's easy to use sitting on the floor and it's easy to store.

[Don]

A picture is worth a thousand words...

Taking pictures is better than working, so here's some pictures.

Tom

The pictures are very helpful - thanks!

Don and Mark: my husband mounted anchors, similar to Tom's pictures, on a piece of 2" x 10" board about 20" long. The board is heavier and does not move freely. Also, it's easy to use sitting on the floor and it's easy to store.

Not a bad idea. I've been thinking about it a bit tonight; I'm going to work something out...

[Scott Card]

A picture is worth a thousand words...

Taking pictures is better than working, so here's some pictures.

Tom

The picture of the double biner block (not advised) is what we did except we had only one 200' rope, ie., we didn't tie two ropes together. Just one rope doubled over and a block on each side of the anchor. Tonight's project is the stone knot!

[Iceaxe]

I want to practice knots and anchors. I wonder what my landlord would think about a couple of bolts in the living room wall...

When I was learning knots I bought several key chain biners and some 3mm accessory chord. It was much easier to have everything scaled down in size so I could carry it in my pocket and practice when I had a few free minutes....

I'd practice during commercials when watching tv. In the car while waiting to pick the kids up form something or other. While sitting in the lobby waiting for an appointment, yada, yada.....

It worked for me....

[nonot]

Is this what you did?

[Scott Card]

No, it was like Tom's picture except Tom's picture of the double biner block as two ropes tied together. We had one 200' rope that we double blocked. The anchor (bolts, webbing and rapide) was as shown or very close to what was shown in Tom's picture.

[nonot]

gotcha, disregard my previous posts then.

[Bo_Beck]

I want to practice knots and anchors. I wonder what my landlord would think about a couple of bolts in the living room wall...

When I was learning knots I bought several key chain biners and some 3mm accessory chord. It was much easier to have everything scaled down in size so I could carry it in my pocket and practice when I had a few free minutes....

I'd practice during commercials when watching tv. In the car while waiting to pick the kids up form something or other. While sitting in the lobby waiting for an appointment, yada, yada.....

It worked for me....

I still use 3mm cord and keychain biners. Much lighter to carry and cheap enough that I can replace it after every use!

[ratagonia]

Is this what you did?

The danger of such a setup has been highly over-stated.

What are the forces in the cross-piece? Are there parts of the system vulnerable to that kind of force.

PART of the American Death Triangle is the cross-piece adding loads to the anchors. Another significant part is the (large) included angle of the triangle vectoring in larger loads to the anchors.

But in any case, applying understanding to the loads involved (I hope) is of higher interest than applying rote rules. I recommend it.

If the bolts are new, modern and well-placed, they are capable of holding 5000 lbs each in shear. The rope, webbing, chains and rings are capable of holding quite a bit too. If the chain comes down at a 45 degree angle, and you have 2 - 200 lbers on rappel, the load on the chain is 1.414* 200 lbs or around 280 lbs. Perhaps a doubling or trippling for the dynamic nature of the load... plus a 1/2 factor for the knot or the rope crossing a ring - still well within the capability of components.

If the bolts are old and crappy, then you should do everything you can to minimize loading. Simulrapping on old crappy bolts, even with 100 lb boy scouts is not recommended. Properly rigging old crappy bolts to minimize vectoring additions is highly recommend. Removing old carrpy bolts and replacing with a decent natural anchor is highly recommended, or, in certain areas, replacing with a new, shiny, well-placed bolt anchor may be appropriate.

To honor greater understanding...

Tom

[Tucker]

..

[oldno7]

To keep this in perspective....................
My comment was ZNP backcountry rangers only use a double fisherman.
I think it is a good bend and should be used where appropriate.

IMO the last rap in Pine Cr. with 2 ropes IS appropriate.(ymmv)

[Scott Card]

and if joining ropes only use a double fisherman.

It's been at least 10 years since I've canyoneered or climbed with anyone who used a double fisherman.

I took a basic class with Zion Adventure Co. a few years ago. They taught the double fisherman as the way to tie 2 ropes together. I've done Pine Creek 4 times, twice with the ropes tied together with the double fisherman with no problem. The problems that day were mostly in my head. I then bought a 300' rope. I know its really heavy and all that but I'm a noobie and I'd rather carry the weight then rig something that I don't fully understand. That last rappel in PC is fun but always made me a little nervous at first. One of the guys with me the first time was breathing so fast I was worried he was going to hyperventilate and fall. Another time it was thundering and the wind was blowing sand around...then my nalgene bottle came lose and detonated on a rock far below...I thought someone was shooting at me at first....also the prusik that ZAC taught us to use kept locking up which really freaked me out...I thought I was going to have to cut it off... bad mojo that had me very nervous but all went well. I'd like to go with some of you guys sometime to learn. I'm not quite the chicken s$#t that I seem..LOL The ZAC class is all the training I ever had. I've done PC, Mystery, Echo, Keyhole, Orderville, etc....nothing too hard.

Here is a video of that one trip...the thunder is fake...the camera didn't pick up the real thunder....but the first part of the video is a good representation of my nervousness that day...the rest is prob boring and too long.

I love the death grip of the left hand. Tell me were the ropes of different diameter? Looked that way from the video. Also, for those experts out there, what is the danger (if any) of different diameter ropes on rappel?

[ratagonia]

I love the death grip of the left hand. Tell me were the ropes of different diameter? Looked that way from the video. Also, for those experts out there, what is the danger (if any) of different diameter ropes on rappel?

Can cause problems, as the ropes will want to run through the rappel device at different rates. Thus, if the ropes are not blocked at the top, they will creep. Can be controlled by carefully moving the ropes together through the device.

There was a death in Zion a couple years ago attributed to this creep. Climber on Angels Landing, rapping at night, a long rappel that the rope just barely reached - the rope crept, and one side no longer reached the ledge, rappeller went off the end.

Be careful out there (mostly a driving admonition, at the moment)...

Tom

[Iceaxe]

There was a death in Zion a couple years ago attributed to this creep. Climber on Angels Landing, rapping at night, a long rappel that the rope just barely reached - the rope crept, and one side no longer reached the ledge, rappeller went off the end.

Interesting.... rope creep is usually measured in inches or a couple of feet (at least from my experiance) and not what I'd call large amounts. I'd be interested in knowing more about this accident if you have any more details.

[Tucker]

..

[ratagonia]

Interesting.... rope creep is usually measured in inches or a couple of feet (at least from my experiance) and not what I'd call large amounts. I'd be interested in knowing more about this accident if you have any more details.

Maybe Brian can dig up the details. What I remember is:

- well-liked, experienced and highly respected climber from Salt Lake
- solo'd Prodigal Son. Accident occured near the top, maybe even on the top pitch.
- happened at night.
- theorized that rope creep was the problem.
- was rapping two different cords, and the pitch was not too much shorter than the length of the rope.

My memory - ha!!!

T