Retrievable anchor idea

[moab mark]

Have been playing around with another tool to bring your webbing down. While in moab this past week used it several times in the canyons we did. On a side note finally found pleasides, came with in seconds of turning back because we thought we were in the wrong place but then it appeared. Have to admit it is awesome. We were amazed how big the pine tree is at the first rappel. Just a trickle of water running right now. Never been canyoneering before and run into a elk hunter but you can in the Lasals. The elk hunter also told us of another place in the lasals he sees people rappeling, went and checked it out, looked good but was getting dark and lightly snowing, next time. Left my camera in moab in my storage shed but will try to get some pics up.
Back to the new rigging idea. If your anchor is clean and the pull is clean we took a piece of webbing tied a rapide in one end and a carabiner in the other. Put the webbing around the anchor, feed your rope through the rapide and then take a 3/8 flat washer and feed the rope through it. Now feed the rope through the carabiner. After feeding the rope through the carabiner tie a overhand knot in the end of the rope and then send it down. Rappel double and then pull the end with out the knot. The knot goes up through the carabiner but can not fit through the washer and the washer will not fit through the rapide. The washer will now pull the rapide and webbing off of the anchor. We used this on the arch in lomatium and granary and a couple of times in pleasides. We thought the knot might catch on the carabiner but it never failed. It worked suprisingly well. Its not for everytime, but if the pull is clean it is a fast way to get your webbing down and is simple to rig.
Mark

[oldno7]

Interesting Mark....
I have a real simple method that works great, will show you in Moab this spring if you remind me.

[ratagonia]

...Back to the new rigging idea. If your anchor is clean and the pull is clean we took a piece of webbing tied a rapide in one end and a carabiner in the other. Put the webbing around the anchor, feed your rope through the rapide and then take a 3/8 flat washer and feed the rope through it. Now feed the rope through the carabiner. After feeding the rope through the carabiner tie a overhand knot in the end of the rope and then send it down. Rappel double and then pull the end with out the knot. The knot goes up through the carabiner but can not fit through the washer and the washer will not fit through the rapide. The washer will now pull the rapide and webbing off of the anchor. We used this on the arch in lomatium and granary and a couple of times in pleasides. We thought the knot might catch on the carabiner but it never failed. It worked suprisingly well. Its not for everytime, but if the pull is clean it is a fast way to get your webbing down and is simple to rig.
Mark

Cool, Mark. Sounds like a real simple method that works great. Good atcha. You'll have to show me it sometime this spring, maybe in Moab - please remind me.

Tom

[Iceaxe]

This might be the coolest of all the retrievable anchor methods I've used to date. I'm hoping this crude drawing helps explain the retrival system. It has been my intention to show the method in photo's or video one of these days but I never seem to get around to doing it.

The trick is the flat washer has to be small enough to pass easily through the biner but large enough that it will not pass through the rapid when you pull your rope.

You pull your rope from the side that does not have a knot. The washer captures the rapid and pulls your webbing down with your rope.

You rappel double strand, just as you normally would.

[moab mark]

That is the concept but I actually place the washer between the rapide and biner, I only pull up the knot. I just use an overhand knot.

[Stick]

I have one question about this rigging that I am wondering if any of you engineering types (or otherwise) might have an answer for.

When pulling the webbing, carabiner, and rapid link down a drop, is damage to the carabiner from the drop a concern? (And for that matter, the rapid link as well?)

The reason I ask is I have seen a few climbers refuse to use a carabiner that has been dropped, being worried that cracks might form and compromise the integrity of the carabiner.

Is this someting to be legitimately concerned about? Or is it not that big of a deal?

[ratagonia]

I have one question about this rigging that I am wondering if any of you engineering types (or otherwise) might have an answer for.

When pulling the webbing, carabiner, and rapid link down a drop, is damage to the carabiner from the drop a concern? (And for that matter, the rapid link as well?)

The reason I ask is I have seen a few climbers refuse to use a carabiner that has been dropped, being worried that cracks might form and compromise the integrity of the carabiner.

Is this someting to be legitimately concerned about? Or is it not that big of a deal?

You should certainly inspect a carabiner that has fallen and crashed from a height. It may have gotten dinged up so that the gate does not close cleanly, but this tends to not be a problem for canyoneers as we use mostly locking carabiners.

Carabiners do not "micro-crack" or otherwise develop hidden defects. This is a myth propogated by overly-enthusiastic engineering students after a discussion of micro-cracks in high-tech ceramics used in jet engine turbine blades. The material used in making carabiners is very, very different, and hidden cracks do not develop.

When the carabiner is tied to the rope, it also does not impact all that hard. Also, since the carabiner weighs very little, the forces developed when it hits are not all that high. No, don't worry about this.

Tom

[Cirrus2000]

Wow, that's a really cool concept. Looks great! Just don't want a sharp washer in the middle - just nicely rounded and smooth, if you're pulling half the rope through (Mark's plan), though that wouldn't be a concern with Shane's conception of it.

Can't believe I totally missed this thread when it was originally posted...

[Canyonbug]

Another tool for the box. Thanks for sharing your ideas.

[UtahAdventureGuide]

I used a similar concept years ago when big-wall climbing in zion. I would cut a couple inches off the top of a 2 liter bottle and run the rope through the center. the pastic bottle won't damage the rope and protects the knot from damage when it's being dragged across the sandstone.

[Don]

I used a similar concept years ago when big-wall climbing in zion. I would cut a couple inches off the top of a 2 liter bottle and run the rope through the center. the pastic bottle won't damage the rope and protects the knot from damage when it's being dragged across the sandstone.

I was going to post this same idea. I'd seen this in photos a couple years ago and like the plastic bottle much better than the washer.

[moab mark]

Wow, that's a really cool concept. Looks great! Just don't want a sharp washer in the middle - just nicely rounded and smooth, if you're pulling half the rope through (Mark's plan), though that wouldn't be a concern with Shane's conception of it.

Can't believe I totally missed this thread when it was originally posted...

I do not recommend pulling the washer up from the bottom. It wants to catch on the biner. I just you the basic 3/8's washer from the hardware store. You can also use it without the washer if your rapide is one of the smaller ones. Have used it dozens of times and have never had a problem. When Bruce pulled it in Granary he commented that he didn't even feel the knot pass thru the biner. Just make sure the pull is clean, if the webbing gets stuck you will be missing your rope.

I like it over the other releasables due to no chance of pre release.

[moab mark]

I used a similar concept years ago when big-wall climbing in zion. I would cut a couple inches off the top of a 2 liter bottle and run the rope through the center. the pastic bottle won't damage the rope and protects the knot from damage when it's being dragged across the sandstone.

I was going to post this same idea. I'd seen this in photos a couple years ago and like the plastic bottle much better than the washer.

Has anyone got a picture of this idea?
If you are putting the bottle top between the biner and rapide the bottle is going to get crushed?

[Stick]

I have one question about this rigging that I am wondering if any of you engineering types (or otherwise) might have an answer for.

When pulling the webbing, carabiner, and rapid link down a drop, is damage to the carabiner from the drop a concern? (And for that matter, the rapid link as well?)

The reason I ask is I have seen a few climbers refuse to use a carabiner that has been dropped, being worried that cracks might form and compromise the integrity of the carabiner.

Is this someting to be legitimately concerned about? Or is it not that big of a deal?

You should certainly inspect a carabiner that has fallen and crashed from a height. It may have gotten dinged up so that the gate does not close cleanly, but this tends to not be a problem for canyoneers as we use mostly locking carabiners.

Carabiners do not "micro-crack" or otherwise develop hidden defects. This is a myth propogated by overly-enthusiastic engineering students after a discussion of micro-cracks in high-tech ceramics used in jet engine turbine blades. The material used in making carabiners is very, very different, and hidden cracks do not develop.

When the carabiner is tied to the rope, it also does not impact all that hard. Also, since the carabiner weighs very little, the forces developed when it hits are not all that high. No, don't worry about this.

Tom

Thanks Tom

[Iceaxe]

Revised picture showing the correct position of the washer.

[trackrunner]

tree climbers use a similar set up. They don't use a washer but a rapide that is small enough that a knot would pull it down. could be used canyoneering only if the pull is clean.

[mtthwlw]

Revised picture showing the correct position of the washer.

Thanks for the diagram. To me, this is more helpful than a picture anyway.

[ScoutColorado]

Mark introduced me to his system in a Canyon, and I thought "Simple and Brilliant!"
BUT it does have ONE MAJOR FLAW! How you gonna sell these to all those yuppie canyoneers? Even the rocket surgeons here at BOGLEY are gonna figure it out eventually. "Why those look a lot like washers"

But then I stumbled across this in the latest issue of Canyoneering.....
RR

[Rob L]

Just a thought...if you put the knot immediately to the right of the washer (in Shane's last diagram) then if the pull wasn't clean, you could still save the rope by pulling the other way.

Would that work?

[rcwild]

Just a thought...if you put the knot immediately to the right of the washer (in Shane's last diagram) then if the pull wasn't clean, you could still save the rope by pulling the other way.

Would that work?

If I understand your question correctly ... no, it won't work, except MAYBE on very very short rappels. When the knot hits the washer, you will be pulling down on the rope at the same time you are pulling the webbing around the tree. Too much friction and the carabiner will pull a bight of rope up and around the back side of the tree.

It has been tried. This system is used by tree climbers with what they call an artificial crotch.