Bolt or no Bolt

[intellectualdesperado]

I had a lengthy/heated discussion with a friend about bolting after a recent trip to home depot where I picked up a shiny new Milwaukee cordless 18v hammer drill.

I'm not a big fan of bolting nor self-important douche bags who go through canyons removing bolts. I have yet to put or pull a bolt in a canyon and believe natural anchors should be used when ever possible.

I was planning on putting one bolt at the end Zero G. Mostly because I fall into the "Large Frame Canyoneer" category. There is no way I'll fit behind the last choke stone. And the only place where I can get down is about 25'-30' above and ankle busting landing.

Last trip through the canyon I jammed a log between the walls of the "bomb bay" and hand-lined it down. There could be serious repercussions or concussions if ye'ole cedar log were to slip or break.

I realize this topic is brought up way to often but I would like to hear your opinions? Feel free to include a reason for your opinion. "I'm self-important douche bag" or "I don't want boy scouts in my canyons" are acceptable answers.

Here's a video if you want a visual.
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu...deoid=39523034

[tanya]

Since I have never posted on this topic and I can't sleep, I will even though I hate to get in the middle of bolt wars.. but I think those that use to get all hot and bothered (but we all know I love when men start fighting... and get hot and bothered and stuff)....now I am getting side tracked.

So back to bolts..

Looks and Environmental Concerns

I hate to see webbing in the canyons. The brighter it is the worse it is. There are places like at Kolob where there are several options of webbing to use depending on where you want to go down.

On the other hand, I have no problem with a bolt. Most people are never even going to notice a bolt. They sort of blend in and are not obnoxious looking at all.

Challenge

I know some canyoneers don't care about the looks or if one is natural and one 'damages' the rock, but what concerns them is that bolts or webbing take away from the challenge of the canyon.

I don't get this one. If you don't want to use them and want to set up a natural anchor (ducking Shane's knock on my head) then why not ignore them and just do your own thing and set up your temporary anchors?

I have no problem with excess bolting because I think it makes the canyon safer for the average canyoneer. I know online are a lot of the hardcore types, but this is such a small percentage of those that do go through the canyons.

[stefan]

I don't get this one. If you don't want to use them and want to set up a natural anchor (ducking Shane's knock on my head) then why not ignore them and just do your own thing and set up your temporary anchors?

temporary anchors ... you just nailed the essence of why many have issues with bolts and prefer natural anchors

[tanya]

I don't get this one. If you don't want to use them and want to set up a natural anchor (ducking Shane's knock on my head) then why not ignore them and just do your own thing and set up your temporary anchors?

temporary anchors ... you just nailed the essence of why many have issues with bolts and prefer natural anchors

While I am probably, other than you, the most environmental supporter in the group, I don't see the bolts as doing harm to the environment and the safety of canyoneers is worth. in my opinion, having the bolts in the rock.

[stefan]

I was planning on putting one bolt at the end Zero G. Mostly because I fall into the "Large Frame Canyoneer" category. There is no way I'll fit behind the last choke stone. And the only place where I can get down is about 25'-30' above and ankle busting landing.

Last trip through the canyon I jammed a log between the walls of the "bomb bay" and hand-lined it down. There could be serious repercussions or concussions if ye'ole cedar log were to slip or break.

did you try slinging the rope around the chockstone, slithering out laterally beyond the chockstone where it's wide enough, and hand-lining down from there? or do you feel you need to be too far out (not to get stuck), which would result in a high velocity swing through the bombay?

[shaggy125]

You would definitely be dumbing down the canyon just because you don't have the skills to get down. Large frame canyoneers with skills can get down safely, I know a few big guys who have done it safely, and I know big guys who haven't. I guarantee a "self-important douche bag" would remove your bolt and you'd piss a lot of people off for doing what many would consider equivalent to chipping out handholds to make a 5.12 climb 5.10. We could build bolt traverses across the high stemming slots so that "everyone" can do them, but it's good to have canyons to build yourself up to. I'd say if you can't get down it safely when others before you have maybe you should wait and do the canyon after you feel your skills are up to the task, then there is no need for a bolt and everyone stays happy. There are hundreds of other canyons out there.

[Iceaxe]

Please don't vandalize canyons that lie above your skill level. You may want to experience them in their undamaged state someday. They will always be there and you have plenty of time. It's not about ego or risk, it's about humility and respect.

The above quote was stolen from Stevee B, I have kept a copy of it because it sums up the bolting issue very nicely.

[DWayne27]

I have kept a copy of it because it sums up the bolting issue very nicely.

it sums up ONE OPINION of the bolting issue very nicely

[Iceaxe]

I was planning on putting one bolt at the end Zero G. Mostly because I fall into the "Large Frame Canyoneer" category. There is no way I'll fit behind the last choke stone. And the only place where I can get down is about 25'-30' above and ankle busting landing.

Since I also fall into the category of "large frame canyoneer" and I am forced to go "over the top" I thought you might be interested in a small historical note in regards to Zero-G.... when we first did the canyon we downclimbed the entire route, including me going over the top.

A couple of thoughts and suggestions before vandalizing Zero-G.... hundreds and now probably thousands of canyoneers have done the route before you and none required bolts.... are hundreds and now probably thousands of canyoneers really more skilled than you?

You can wrap a rope around the chokestone at the top of the drop and you have an outstanding anchor if you feel inclined to rappel the last drop. I fail to see how a bolt is safer than a 400 pound chokestone. We have rigged zip lines off of that chokestone and it's not going anywhere.

The final obstacle also lends its self well to a partner assist.... if you have a skinny guy who can go low send him through first to spot for large frame canyoneers going over the top.

Two ways to do it.... drill and bolt.... or teamwork, ingenuity and intelligence....

[Scott Card]

I have done Zero G a few times. I have done the pendulum swing into small canyoneers a couple of times. It is kinda like bowling for canyoneers... I being the bowling ball and the smaller guys the pins. Fun for me actually. The other way that Shane suggested is the zip line. It is fun, in fact more fun than the bowling for canyoneers method. Please don

[tanya]

I have kept a copy of it because it sums up the bolting issue very nicely.

it sums up ONE OPINION of the bolting issue very nicely

[Jaxx]

here we go again

[hank moon]

I haven't done Zero G, but in many cases the large-frame people can rap off one or more members of the party who can D/C the drop.

Temporary Mobile Anchors are fun!

[tanya]

here we go again

I love watching men duke it out.

[Jaxx]

I love watching men duke it out.

I feel the same way about women. the best part is the end when the pillow fight is over and they kiss and make up.

[tanya]

I love watching men duke it out.

I feel the same way about women. the best part is the end when the pillow fight is over and they kiss and make up.

I like the fighting part... makes me so (don't want to get this thread tossed in the trash, but you guys know) .... the adreneline is flowing and it making up is so much fun. I have a feeling you would not mind being in the middle of the fighting or the making up parts.

That is a manly thing for sure!


I am posting on the wrong dang thread! How did you ever get on that subject here!

[intellectualdesperado]

"Please don't vandalize canyons"

I never really considered bolting vandalizing. And I don't think I will. Skill lever or is it that you have to be a skinny ass punk to make it behind the choke stone. If I remember correctly I was walking over the "bomb bay" with my toes on one side of the wall and my heals on the other. So I guess the real question is.... is your chest more narrow than your fee. or gut in my case.

As far as skill level goes that comment reminds me of free climbing. Yeah its great if you can impress the ladies with your mad skills but you only get one mistake.

What I'm trying to say is not everyone is under six feet and has shoulders and chest as narrow as their hips. I'd love to be a 5'7" 160lb subaru outback driving rock climber but not going to happen. Anyone that size probably would never see the bolt because they wouldn't have to go out in the crack where there's a 30' drop and a very nasty landing.

So tell me. Who here has never placed a bolt. And who has never placed one for safety when they could have done it without?

[tanya]

Shane is not a little guy....... guessing 180 plus lbs. He is over 6 feet and his head is bigger than his chest most of the time.

[Scott Card]

I have never placed a bolt. I have placed one pin at the beginning of my canyoneering career at the top of the last rap in Eardly. We couldn't find the anchor that was underwater somewhere so I pounded in a knife blade if I remember correctly. I have set many natural anchors and I do believe bolts have a place in certain circumstances. Just so you know, I am 6'2" and weigh, depending on the amount of donuts and dutch oven cookin going on, 195 lbs to 210 at any given time. I am not a skinny climber. Heck that is why I like canyoneering, most of the time, gravity is my friend. I start at the top and go DOWN, hopefully in a controlled manner. No one, I mean no one has ever accused me of being a climber

When I went through Zero G with Shane, I think my group was one of the first he took through. We spoke of the zip line which had not been tried yet but which has been done several times since. When I reached the bombay, I dropped in and swung back towards the chock stone and took out the skinny guy there to catch me. It was pretty funny and a bit unnerving but there are other ways to protect that spot. Hank had a good suggestion with the meat anchors and I still maintain if you want a straight drop bring along something to wedge in the slot to re-direct your rap from the chock stone to where you want to drop in. Better yet and more fun still, send the skinny guy out first and set a zip line. That is the most fun way to exit Zero G. What a fun little canyon. Shane also asked our group's opinion of the rating of the canyon. I think we all were concerned about the bombay and rated it at a PG-13 or R. I can't remember. But the point was that it is a point of discussion and a place in the canyon to be taken seriously. Kinda like the last rap in Pine Creek with its recent accident. We take this stuff lightly sometimes and Zero G may get, or alreadh have, the reputation as a romp which it is if you know how to deal with the bombay. Otherwise, that bombay can be a serious spot if not considered and dealt with properly. I am wondering what your impression of this canyon was when you went in? I fear that the canyon is not being taken seriously and that is when folks get hurt.

[goofball]

you should do what you want. and not be offended if someone somebody else doesn't choose that route.

find like minded people who are only out to enjoy the natural world and not looking for disciples. those are the vast majority of people out there anyway.

since were talking "community", i'd like to see all those who assume they speak for the "community" take some responsibility and keep the group size down. THAT is hugely offensive to me and people i know. the entourages lumbering thru and the impact that has from approach to descent to exit. not to mention it kills the experience for others who may be there and are looking to have an outdoors experience instead of a social hour in a canyon instead of in the city. or who do not get to enjoy it at all if a permit system exists because all the permits get gobbled up.

there is no governing organization other than the laws or regulations that the land management agency (blm, usfs,nps, whatever...) has in place. so ignore everything but that. who has a link to the different agencies management plans so folks can see for their selves what is kosher and what is not ? i tried for 30-45 minutes to find something specifically on glen canyon nra but none of the documents i found mentioned bolting. its a bushwhack of info to wade thru... i assume placing new permanent fixtures is typically prohibited unless safety reasons override.

it all boils down to personality. are you the type who thinks people w/ differing approaches are "not up to skill level" or whatever ? or are you the type who doesn't care less how others do what they do so long as it is not imposed upon everyone ? neither bolts nor natural anchors are anywhere near to being imposed upon anyone. if their are multiple choices, then simply choose the one which appeals to you.

all that said i do enjoy the challenge of "clean" descents much more. almost everything can be overcome w/ teamwork and thought. but neither a bolt nor streamers of webbing is natural. a 2 square inch profile bolt w/ a short runner? or many feet of ugly webbing ? almost a draw, but properly doen the bolt is much safer, from dismount to landing.