Gun owners complain about treatment in West Valley City

[Sombeech]

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3559401

A group of gun owners is upset with the West Valley City police force. They claim officers are treating them unfairly because they choose to carry their weapons in shoulder and hip holsters, completely out in the open.

In Utah, there are places no one but law enforcement can take a gun, and there are restrictions, for example people without a concealed carry permit can't openly carry a loaded gun, but much of the time, it's allowed.

Jared Belcher is among those who choose to carry a gun. "It's a Bursa Thunder 380 I carry just about every day," he says. He carries it on his belt, out in the open. He said, "Most people, surprisingly, don't notice I have it."

Belcher says he's never had a problem taking the gun anywhere, but he's concerned because others he's met through the organization opencarry.org have. Travis Deveraux says he was walking in his West Valley neighborhood when an officer pulled up, pulled out her gun and ordered him on the ground.

"At the end there were a total of eight officers who'd cuffed me up, taken my firearm. But they let me go because there was nothing wrong I'd done," Deveraux said.

Belcher and Deveraux joined more than a dozen other gun owners tonight at the West Valley city council meeting to voice concerns about how the city's police force has handled several situations.

Scott Thompson, who also openly carries his gun, said, "A lot of the officers seem to be ignorant of the fact that carrying a firearm openly in public is perfectly legal in Utah, if done properly."

Wayne Pyle, the city manager for West Valley City, said, "Until today I'd never heard there was any concern, complaint or incident." He had limited time to research the cases but says it appears West Valley Police handled them appropriately. He adds that in any situation where officers know someone has a gun, they're extra cautious. "This is a different day and age than the late 19th century. It's not common to see people wearing side-arms on the street," he said.

After hearing the group's comments, the city council recommended the citizens file their complaints with the city's Professional Standards Review Board, which investigates concerns against officers.

[Iceaxe]

West Valley City has the worst cops in the state. I seldom venture in WVC just because of their cops.... always hassling you... and I'm an old man, I can't imagine the hassling they do of young men. And I refuse to shop in WVC, I hope that damn city goes broke... it was a lot better back when it was SL county. The county cops are some of the best.

I lost all respect for the WVC cops one night when I saw then marking tail lights of cars at a local club.... talk about illegal.... that case has been to court many times and proven illegal, but WVC cops were still doing it.

[Jaxx]

I saw this on the news last night. If I were a cop I would treat it the same way. Get the guy in cuffs, at gunpoint. Then learn what he is doing. If everything checks out then let him go with a smile and an explanation of why I just did that. You can't be too careful. I realize it is legal to open carry and I say go for it, but cops have to treat you as guilty first for their safety. Mabey that isn't the way it is supposed to work but that is life.

[parrothead_madness]

I saw this on the news last night. If I were a cop I would treat it the same way. Get the guy in cuffs, at gunpoint. Then learn what he is doing. If everything checks out then let him go with a smile and an explanation of why I just did that. You can't be too careful. I realize it is legal to open carry and I say go for it, but cops have to treat you as guilty first for their safety. Mabey that isn't the way it is supposed to work but that is life.

You are immensely and profoundly incorrect. Read the Utah laws and the State Constitution. If you were a cop you would be breaking the law.
Prudence dictates I say no more.

[Jaxx]

I understand that they are breaking the law but who would prosecute them? If I was a cop I would do the same thing. It's obvious that cops are going to be nervous when people open carry.
I also don't open carry so take it with a grain of salt.

[parrothead_madness]

I don't know of any being actually prosecuted, but all over the country more and more people are filing complaints and civil suits against police departments. And winning I might add. The suits usually are not aimed at collecting damages but public apologies along with education and policy changes within departments. West Valley City is the only department in the state that consistently and deliberately disregards Utah statutes.
I would most assuredly make a huge amount of noise if it were to happen to me. I would prefer not to, although I do have a very good relationship with a very good attorney, fortunately.

[JP]

civil suits against police departments. And winning I might add.

Because the Cities, Towns, Counties and or State do not wish to fight it out in court, it's cheaper for them to settle.

[Sombeech]

I've got mixed feelings on open carry. Just get the CCP.

All you need are a couple of "witnesses" to say you were brandishing your weapon, to get screwed royally.

I will agree that the WVC cops are a little out of line. It's perfectly fine to walk up to the person, ask them how they are doing, and explain why they stopped them. Officers keep a hand on their holster while doing this, as well as traffic stops.

[parrothead_madness]

Because the Cities, Towns, Counties and or State do not wish to fight it out in court, it's cheaper for them to settle.

Is this a good thing or bad thing? I'm not sure.

I've got mixed feelings on open carry. Just get the CCP.

I have one and I conceal more than I don't, but my habits are slowly changing. I travel almost constantly, and in some states it is very illegal to open carry, you can get in trouble for even printing in some areas.
As time goes on, I am more and more active about open carry. At one point I was pretty much against it. Now I open carry and "casual conceal", usually just for the convenience of it. I do freely admit that sometimes I put on the shiny .45 and the python holster just for the sake of making a political statement. It's funny though, it seems like not many notice and few show any reaction, fewer still ever say anything. Of the few that occasionally say something, most have a positive comment. I attribute at least some of that to the fact I am usually in Tooele. I haven't read any cases of anyone being hassled out here, and I haven't been myself.

[parrothead_madness]

It's perfectly fine to walk up to the person, ask them how they are doing, and explain why they stopped them. Officers keep a hand on their holster while doing this, as well as traffic stops.

And yeah, I would have zero problem with an encounter like that. Gun drawn, cuffed and stuffed I would have an issue with.

[JP]

Because the Cities, Towns, Counties and or State do not wish to fight it out in court, it's cheaper for them to settle.

Is this a good thing or bad thing? I'm not sure.

Obviously it's a bad thing. If they're not fighting issues when they're in the right due to costs, how is that the "right" thing? If they're allowing false accusations to be made and then paid for, you tell me. It's good for the ones bringing the suit on, but not for all others involved. Tax payers are paying in either case. The ones that are fought are the ones that seek ridiculous amounts and then refuse the counter offers. That's usually how that system works, not much of one at all. Then what people fail to realize is that 99% of motor vehicle stops are recorded. That in and of itself is the funniest thing to see when they're caught lying in court. The problem is, they have already have eaten time, money and resources by the time it gets that far. What should happen that doesn't, which I feel would curb these ridiculous accusations, would for the Town, Cities, Counties and or States should counter with a lawsuit for making the false complaint in the first place. If people get whacked in the pockets for frivolously bringing these suits on, I'm sure there would be a whole lot less.

[parrothead_madness]

Because the Cities, Towns, Counties and or State do not wish to fight it out in court, it's cheaper for them to settle.

Is this a good thing or bad thing? I'm not sure.

Obviously it's a bad thing. If they're not fighting issues when they're in the right due to costs, how is that the "right" thing? If they're allowing false accusations to be made and then paid for, you tell me. It's good for the ones bringing the suit on, but not for all others involved. Tax payers are paying in either case. The ones that are fought are the ones that seek ridiculous amounts and then refuse the counter offers. That's usually how that system works, not much of one at all. Then what people fail to realize is that 99% of motor vehicle stops are recorded. That in and of itself is the funniest thing to see when they're caught lying in court. The problem is, they have already have eaten time, money and resources by the time it gets that far. What should happen that doesn't, which I feel would curb these ridiculous accusations, would for the Town, Cities, Counties and or States should counter with a lawsuit for making the false complaint in the first place. If people get whacked in the pockets for frivolously bringing these suits on, I'm sure there would be a whole lot less.

Hmm, we seem to sit on different sides of this one. Most of the cases I have read about people haven't asked for more than court and attorney fees. If people don't file these suits, how are we to protect our rights? I see my concealed firearms permit could be considered a privilege, open carry is a right, I am not willing to give a right away.

I do not however support frivolous lawsuits. "Your Honor, this dude was harassin' me for nothin', I conjugate thereforely he should elucidate me with eleventy jillion Benjamins, and I want it in unmarked Jacksons or smaller your honor".
Costs, a public apology and education for the department is sufficient, at least it would be for me.

[JP]

Hmm, we seem to sit on different sides of this one. Most of the cases I have read about people haven't asked for more than court and attorney fees. If people don't file these suits, how are we to protect our rights?
I do not however support frivolous lawsuits. "Your Honor, this dude was harassin' me for nothin', I conjugate thereforely he should elucidate me with eleventy jillion Benjamins, and I want it in unmarked Jacksons or smaller your honor".
Costs, a public apology and education for the department is sufficient, at least it would be for me.

Most people don't ask for a plethora of Benjamin's when it comes to suing law enforcement? What State do you live in? That's not the case back here. If they could conjure up a good story, they go for the throat. Only to find out if it does go the distance, it's been recorded
No, if you're wronged, you should fight it. In some cases, "feelings" get involved and "feelings" are not part of the definitions when laws are created. There are loop holes in most laws, just make sure when you decide to fight, the laws are backing your stance and not your feelings. Law Enforcement deals with the law everyday and the for the lay person, most really don't understand or know how to interrupt laws. This is where the mass confusion takes place. The lay person always goes by I heard, I think, I saw on TV, I feel... none of these have anything to do with what is actually written.

Being arrested and fighting your case in court does not mean a "suit" is needed to protect rights. The protecting of rights would be successfully defending your position in criminal court, not in a civil setting. Look at OJ, cleared criminally, civilly screwed. Civil cases, no matter how absurd, people can win money. Somewhere, at sometime, someone in a jury has felt the same way and are willing to give money to someone they "FEEL" was wronged. Even if they were criminally responsible.

Being cleared criminally, don't expect an apology from law enforcement. They did their job and they do not apologize for doing so. And as far as education, nobody in law enforcement is uneducated. They have mandated classes to attend to maintain their certification. Updates in everything from Motor Vehicle Law, Criminal Law and more specialized areas that Law Enforcement faces like domestic violence, rape crisis, hate crimes, etc.

[parrothead_madness]

And as far as education, nobody in law enforcement is uneducated.

You have obviously never met a West Valley cop.

In general I have a tremendous respect for anyone who chooses to go into law enforcement. It's a sometimes rough gig without a lot of reward, most of the people you interact with don't want to be interacting with you.
If there are any WVC officers reading this, I apologize, but you are rated somewhere below Jr. High hall monitor. I read somewhere there were more complaints against officers in West Valley than the entire rest of the state combined. Granted, I also read that the Utah Highway Patrol has one of the lowest incidents of complaints in the country too. I don't know how valid that is, but it's very easy to believe.

Seriously you would be amazed at how many officers have no clue whether open carry is legal or not, and how many will tell you it isn't, in Utah at least.
You almost never hear of someone being harassed in Arizona, and WAY more people open carry there.