Pinecreek June 8th NOOBFEST

[Iceaxe]

but is there a closed sign there? Because if there wasn't, you would think the Rangers would be more aggressive in tackling that social trail "problem".

This is what is so stupid about the current permit system.... the permit system was originally put into place so rangers and canyoneers could interact and information like avoiding this emerging social trail could distributed.... but now the permit system has just turned into an unwieldily monster who's original purpose has been lost to those in power. The only thing of importance anymore is that the permit system provide a revenue stream....

[jman]

but is there a closed sign there? Because if there wasn't, you would think the Rangers would be more aggressive in tackling that social trail "problem".

This is what is so stupid about the current permit system.... the permit system was originally put into place so rangers and canyoneers could interact and information like avoiding this emerging social trail could distributed.... but now the permit system has just turned into an unwieldily monster who's original purpose has been lost to those in power. The only thing of importance anymore is that the permit system provide a revenue stream....

Good point. I agree. That was the first time in Tom's post that I read it was "closed". To be fair, should there be a list of ALL closed signs. No I think it's pretty explanatory when you come across one. And both, Tanya and you Shane, oh and Tom, do a good job in betas to tell us to stay in the watercourse to avoid "social trails" and further prevent errosion. Other than that, besides those beta-retrieving sources, there is no other way that tells us of these "problems". Again, when I retrieve permits from the backcountry desk, or print them on my own using the express permits, I don't see any pertintent information saying "stay in watercourse after last rappell - do NOT head up to the road, etc."

So the rangers can't blame us if they don't tell us (and visa versa) ...right? or am I missing some key information here?

[ratagonia]

Sorry, I tend to speak/type faster than my brain thinks. I was saying through my 8+ journeys through Pinecreek - I have noticed that most people after finishing the last rappel head directly toward the road...on the CLOSED path, that you mentioned earlier.

I didn't say this in my previous post, but is there a closed sign there? Because if there wasn't, you would think the Rangers would be more aggressive in tackling that social trail "problem".

There WAS a closed sign there, but the BC desk does not maintain closed signs very well. Also, there is more than one path up to the bench.

By the by, "head directly up towards the road" is very misleading, one reason I could not understand your questions previously. It heads up to a path that eventually gets to the road. Takes 45 minutes at a good pace, so it is not like the road is right there!

Don't encourage them!!!

Tom

[jman]

Sorry, I tend to speak/type faster than my brain thinks. I was saying through my 8+ journeys through Pinecreek - I have noticed that most people after finishing the last rappel head directly toward the road...on the CLOSED path, that you mentioned earlier.

I didn't say this in my previous post, but is there a closed sign there? Because if there wasn't, you would think the Rangers would be more aggressive in tackling that social trail "problem".

There WAS a closed sign there, but the BC desk does not maintain closed signs very well. Also, there is more than one path up to the bench.

By the by, "head directly up towards the road" is very misleading, one reason I could not understand your questions previously. It heads up to a path that eventually gets to the road. Takes 45 minutes at a good pace, so it is not like the road is right there!

Don't encourage them!!!

Tom

Well it's not my fault with the "closed" trail. I was just asking what the preferred trail after the last rappel at Pinecreek is. Then you told me it was "closed" after I've seen gaggles of people heading towards the bench right after the rappel.

And I don't believe I'm encouraging anyone - directly - to take that trail. I made reference to the trail there, and yes I would imagine it would take a good while to escape that route. But they sure are missing a great part - all the boulder-hopping, wading and swimming by bypassing the swimhole.

And you are indirectly encouraging people by saying that route should be used as an emergency. People, will take it, thinking that its AlWAYS an emergency to take it. And how many times have I been on a hike where there is a sign that says "no trail - revegetation area" in the Wasatch mountains? Every trail. And at every sign, you always see fresh footprints beyond the sign - ignoring the sign.

So, with that - even if there is a sign at the end, will it prevent people from hiking up on it? No. One option, is to have no sign, and let it be and hope for the best? Or another option, is to have that part, slightly developed by the park - so people who want to escape, can take that route or the one that ends at the swimhole. What would be wrong with that option? Just thinking outside the box here.

[ratagonia]

Well it's not my fault with the "closed" trail. I was just asking what the preferred trail after the last rappel at Pinecreek is. Then you told me it was "closed" after I've seen gaggles of people heading towards the bench right after the rappel.

And I don't believe I'm encouraging anyone - directly - to take that trail. I made reference to the trail there, and yes I would imagine it would take a good while to escape that route. But they sure are missing a great part - all the boulder-hopping, wading and swimming by bypassing the swimhole.

And you are indirectly encouraging people by saying that route should be used as an emergency. People, will take it, thinking that its AlWAYS an emergency to take it. And how many times have I been on a hike where there is a sign that says "no trail - revegetation area" in the Wasatch mountains? Every trail. And at every sign, you always see fresh footprints beyond the sign - ignoring the sign.

So, with that - even if there is a sign at the end, will it prevent people from hiking up on it? No. One option, is to have no sign, and let it be and hope for the best? Or another option, is to have that part, slightly developed by the park - so people who want to escape, can take that route or the one that ends at the swimhole. What would be wrong with that option? Just thinking outside the box here.

No no no no no!! Don't encourage the PARK to have more enforcement - they've done enough damage already!!

They should keep their signs up to date, and they should put a note on the Pine Creek permit saying "stay in the watercourse".

And for those listening in - in Summer, the trail is REALLY HOT. Don't go that way! It sucks.

T

[jman]

Well it's not my fault with the "closed" trail. I was just asking what the preferred trail after the last rappel at Pinecreek is. Then you told me it was "closed" after I've seen gaggles of people heading towards the bench right after the rappel.

And I don't believe I'm encouraging anyone - directly - to take that trail. I made reference to the trail there, and yes I would imagine it would take a good while to escape that route. But they sure are missing a great part - all the boulder-hopping, wading and swimming by bypassing the swimhole.

And you are indirectly encouraging people by saying that route should be used as an emergency. People, will take it, thinking that its AlWAYS an emergency to take it. And how many times have I been on a hike where there is a sign that says "no trail - revegetation area" in the Wasatch mountains? Every trail. And at every sign, you always see fresh footprints beyond the sign - ignoring the sign.

So, with that - even if there is a sign at the end, will it prevent people from hiking up on it? No. One option, is to have no sign, and let it be and hope for the best? Or another option, is to have that part, slightly developed by the park - so people who want to escape, can take that route or the one that ends at the swimhole. What would be wrong with that option? Just thinking outside the box here.

No no no no no!! Don't encourage the PARK to have more enforcement - they've done enough damage already!!

They should keep their signs up to date, and they should put a note on the Pine Creek permit saying "stay in the watercourse".

And for those listening in - in Summer, the trail is REALLY HOT. Don't go that way! It sucks.

T

My misunderstading Tom. The park - I concur wholeheartedly. The permit and backcountry system has gotten out of hand!

2010 - Time for a revolution of Zion !!!!!

[trackrunner]

2010 - Time for a revolution of Zion !!!!!

Well you can pack heat in NP now. Viva la revolution canyoning en Zion