Echo and snow

[Iceaxe]

OK... I'm thinking of doing Echo this week...So what's the big deal?

What makes Echo so difficult right now with snow? I'm not sure if I have ever understood exactly what it is. I just assumed it was the deep snow creates snow bridges and hollow caverns beneath you, I assume the snow also turns to ice and makes climbing up and over difficult....

I assume ice axe, crampon's and a few ice screws will take care of most problems? And a little skill, care and experience on snow and ice will take care of most safety issues?

Enquiring minds want to know....

[Scott P]

This may be too much out of date, but this is from Ram on the canyons group as of May 22:

Deadly conditions in Echo

The worst I have ever seen. Rather than the 2, 75 yard sections of
snow and ice, most of the distance from the final rap to near the
right turn out of the slot has deep snow. Understand, I seek these
conditions out and have done so religiously for the few times each
decade it occurs in Echo, but this is a very different animal.

Equipped with ax and entering from the bottom, Mr. Brejcha and I
encountered suspended blocks of snow weighing a ton or more. We
encountered tunnels, squeezed off to nothing. Moots, melted out under
snowfields with drops of up to 50 feet. Snow bridges melted out to a
foot thick, 60 feet above the canyon floor. Ribbons of snow climbing
at 45 degree angles. When you get up on the snowfields on top, you are
BLIND to the moots and thin bridges below you!! Because of the volume
of snow that accumulated this winter, the dangers of the melt out,
never trivial, is way more dangerous than I have ever seen in there.
BY FAR!!

It is my understanding that 2 groups had to be rescued out of there
last week. You enter at the top, do the short raps, pull your ropes
and BANG!! Your in it deep!! If you must poke around (and it is
amazing), enter from the bottom ONLY, wander around and look. If you
must probe, an ax is a must. Careful!

We chopped a lot of snow, from between walls and fields, then squeezed
thru, to avoid the dangerous tops of snow. It was the 2nd of those
recent hot days. Tuesday last, I believe. Made it into the mid 90's.
The air temp in there was 40. The water was colder. The rock was wet,
slimy, grimy and a friction free zone.

It is melting out pretty fast, but it still will be there for weeks to
come. It may be safer after awhile. In the meantime, I recommend
nothing more than a trip up from the BOTTOM only for a peek. Pictures
to come soon.
Ram

There was a photo link, but for some reason the photo link doesn

[Iceaxe]

Yeah.... someone posted that in the noob-fest thread last week and we re-arranged our plans accordingly....

But it was also what got me to thinking.... this might be some fun for a properly equipped team.

My only thought at the moment is go in early before crap starts melting and falling.... I figure if we can siderman up frozen waterfalls and cross crevasse laced glaciers....

Jumar


Iceaxe


Iceaxe

[Scott P]

My only thought at the moment is go in early before crap starts melting and falling....

I would guess that it is hard but probably melting 24 hours a day without refreezing in June. Even in the shaded canyons, it doesn't seem to freeze at night in June. At least I've never seen a hard freeze in any CP canyon in June, though I've seen snow in some canyons at that time (i.e. Icebox and the Finger Canyons). Probably not much waterfall ice climbing in there.

Here are some more post that might help.

The snow is below the raps. Access to the snow from below is easy. The
section of canyon leading to the snow from below is lovely. I would
recommend, going in from the bottom, ascending the snow to the final
rap, then back out. Then around to the top and descent the whole
thing. Just not that much distance involved in the extra lap and the
safety that it adds is worth it IMO. Some of the worst melt outs are
usually on the bottom, downcanyon side of snow piles. That way you see
the most dangerous places from revealing angles. Still enough time to
do Mystery in that day, if the Echo has melted out enough not to be as
time consuming as it was May 20th.-Ram

Echo has really SCARY snow. There was a good reason ram and i turned around. Check it from the bottom first, and if it doesn't look bad,
have a blast.-Matt

You can read the full threads with all post below:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/message/45280

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/message/45062

It sounds better just to do it from the bottom up first, which is what both Ram and Matt recommend. Of course since that was three weeks ago, who knows how much things have changed?

Anyway, I did Echo last year on May 20. Check out the photos:

http://www.summitpost.org/album/2955...-Canyons-.html

No snow and not even much water in Echo. Mostly just bone-dry sand.

[Iceaxe]

I planned to check it out from the bottom first... just curious what gear a group should be packing.... and what is it I don't understand that could get me hurt..... I understand hanging blocks and bridges of snow....

What is it that caused the two previous groups to be rescued? What gear were they lacking that would have allowed them to continue?

[Iceaxe]

Besides.... what's the big deal? If we do the route and get hurt we can sue... right?

[Iceaxe]

Rain will sometime just cause the snow to turn to ice....

Better post the part about raining hard in Zion into the feast thread.

[Scott P]

What is it that caused the two previous groups to be rescued? What gear were they lacking that would have allowed them to continue?

All that I heard was that they were "unprepared for the extreme conditions". I would bet that Bo might know.

Besides.... what's the big deal? If we do the route and get hurt we can sue... right?

I wouldn't go there. I know your joking, but if anything is going to cause canyons to be closed it is fear of that and unfortuantely people have taken it to practice as you know.

Rain will sometime just cause the snow to turn to ice....

Or make it more unstable and more mushy.

[mrbrejcha]

.... this might be some fun for a properly equipped team.

We were a properly equipped team, and it was fun until we were far off the ground not knowing what we were walking on.

I'm sure it has changed a lot since then, but check it form the bottom.

I don't know how to imbed a videoto the post but here's a link to a video of echo on may 20th. We had to chop tunnels to get through several spots, while sitting under big blocks of snow at times.

http://picasaweb.google.com/mrbrejch...89177135300546

[jumar]

I'd do it with ya Shane...although I won't have a free weekend probably before the snow is gone.

[AJ]

I'm planning on going through, so if you are serious, let's chat at the fest...