Fireman's Belay

**Brian in SLC** · 06-04-2008, 07:25 AM

Good stuff!

Couple of comments. I always like a TR belay for rappelling with folks who either haven't done it, or, aren't proficient at it. I hear rumor that the fireman's belay doesn't work that well in practice, plus, you're right in the drop zone for any rocks (etc) that come loose in the rappel.

Also, if you're going to back up your rappel, you might give thought to doing it below the device. Having some type back up above the device has been shown many times to not work as folks tend to grab it and render it fairly useless.

Best back up I've seen is to extend the rappel device on a sling, and, use a french Prusik below from a leg loop.

I also like to have a bit more on the ol' harness on a rappel. A length or two of cord and a few biners, just in case. You never know when some beyotch might find their long hair or shirt sucked up into their rappel device and your options are pretty minimal if you can't rig to unweight the device. In fact, practicing stopping in the middle of a rappel and rigging for ascention is a good trick to master. Then you dial your system and know what extra gear to have on the harness.

Nice lookin' crag. Do folks climb there?

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

**Sponsored Link** · 06-04-2008 07:25 AM

**rockgremlin** · 06-04-2008, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

I hear rumor that the fireman's belay doesn't work that well in practice, plus, you're right in the drop zone for any rocks (etc) that come loose in the rappel.

Depends. The belayer doesn't have to stand DIRECTLY beneath the belayee. I've always found the fireman to work quite well for noob situations. I can't think of many cases where it wouldn't work well in practice....unless there was an obvious weight difference between belayer and belayee, and/or if the belayee had lost control and was in rapid free fall - but hopefully the belayer would have gotten a hold of the situation before that occurs.

**Brian in SLC** · 06-04-2008, 08:53 AM

Originally Posted by rockgremlin

Originally Posted by Brian in SLC

I hear rumor that the fireman's belay doesn't work that well in practice, plus, you're right in the drop zone for any rocks (etc) that come loose in the rappel.

Depends. The belayer doesn't have to stand DIRECTLY beneath the belayee. I've always found the fireman to work quite well for noob situations. I can't think of many cases where it wouldn't work well in practice....unless there was an obvious weight difference between belayer and belayee, and/or if the belayee had lost control and was in rapid free fall - but hopefully the belayer would have gotten a hold of the situation before that occurs.

I think you might have missed my point. Practice versus theory. Thinkin' about it working is theory. Really working is "in practice".

In other words, I've heard stories that folks who have had to rely on a fireman's belay from the bottom, for a rappel who lost control of the rappel, in real life, couldn't provide the safety and the rappeller hit the ground.

My point is, that if you want to provide a decent back up for someone rappelling, then a top belay is much better than a bottom one. For a variety of reasons. If you had to render some type of help for the person on rappel, you'd be better off above them than below, for example (much easier to descend the belay line to help than ascend their rappel line, and, much safer too).

If it were me, going on, say, a "noob fest", and I was in the company of folks who weren't saavy rappellers, I'd top belay them. If you were fireman's belaying my boy Jim, when he cratered in Pine Creek, and you failed to stop him, he'd a crushed you like a bug. Har har. Talk about putting yourself in the line of fire. No offense, Jim!

Plus, with a top belay, you can use an alternate anchor separate from the main rappelling anchor (more safe).

Anyone AMGA certified for top roping? I'm curious how they teach to protect folks learning to rappel. My bet is the current scout folks who are certified know this stuff too. In fact, through a quick web search, a climbing merit badge is earned when a person can belay a rappeller from the top, and, demonstrate, "Tie in to a belay rope set up to protect rappellers."

-Brian in SLC

**Jaxx** · 06-04-2008, 09:39 AM

I have the topping out and climb on safely certs for boy scouts. I have them, that doesn't mean I was listening the whole time.
The scouts require that the boys have a top belay on them while rapelling. They taught that doing both a fireman's and top rope belay were a good idea. A second anchor is required for the top rope belay.
On a side note, I have done a fireman's belay while my dad was rapelling and I tightened the rope. He wasn't out of control, just coming down normally and I thought I would test out the belay. It worked like a charm, except the quick stop pulling his harness upward into his crotch while his body was falling downward

**trackrunner** · 06-04-2008, 09:48 AM

This thread has been derailed maybe it needs to be split into two because it is an important topic.

Some info I found on belays:

Discussion on Bottom Belay aka Fireman Belay lmitations & forces
http://canyoneering.net/forums/showthread.php?p=551

All types of belays
http://canyoneering.net/forums/showp...64&postcount=2

**SLCmntjunkie** · 06-04-2008, 09:55 AM

I'm curious about what rumors you heard that suggests a fireman's belay is unreliable. I've used it and never had a problem at all stopping the rappeler. I think when using it the belayer needs to be paying attention, often I've seen people lightly holding the rope with there fingertips or with too much slack in the rope, so if the rappeler lost control they may not be prepared to stop them properly.

I'd agree a top belay can be a better option at times though. If I'm with a noob canyoneering, I'd be fine with giving them a fireman's belay but wouldn't send them down last and I'd set up a contingency anchor so someone could lower them down if needed, but I guess that's another topic.

**rockgremlin** · 06-04-2008, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by SLCmntjunkie

I'm curious about what rumors you heard that suggests a fireman's belay is unreliable. I've used it and never had a problem at all stopping the rappeler. I think when using it the belayer needs to be paying attention, often I've seen people lightly holding the rope with there fingertips or with too much slack in the rope, so if the rappeler lost control they may not be prepared to stop them properly.

This is my point. If the belayer is vigilant, and has a definite weight advantage over the guy on the rope, there shouldn't be a lot of room for error.

Now mind you, I'm not arguing that fireman is BETTER than a top-rope belay (because it probably isn't for the reasons Brian laid out), just commenting that it has been reliable for me many times in the past.

**oldno7** · 06-04-2008, 10:16 AM

This is my point. If the belayer is vigilant, and has a definite weight advantage over the guy on the rope, there shouldn't be a lot of room for error.

There is no need for a weight advantage if like you said the bottom belayer is vigilant. All you are doing is braking the descenders fall with their own rap device, you need no more weight than the rappeler would need to stop themselves. The caveat is catching and arresting a fall immediately.
There should be enough tension on the bottom belay to not infringe on the rappellers natural descent but enough to catch a fall immediately.
Very usefull for beginners, imo(sometimes others as well)

**Brian in SLC** · 06-04-2008, 10:18 AM

Yeah. That "payin' attention" thing.

Part of it, for me, would be taking an "active" role in protecting someone, versus having to "react" to protect someone. When you belay from the top, you are forced to feed the rope and watch their progress.

On a fireman's, there's the potential for a bunch of distraction (like a group of folks chitty chattying, etc). And, the most critical time will be right at the moment of the least amount of friction from the rope, around 20 feet or so from the deck, at a point where the "fireman" is also at risk. You'd actually be looking at potentially two folks getting pretty hurt versus just one.

I think folks that have deployed the fireman's, have done so successfully in a very controlled situation where they stop the rappeller, who is in control, as more of a joke. Have heard stories from "real life", where a rappeller has lost control near the bottom of a rappel, and a fireman's belay was ineffective at preventing a crash. Too little too late or some such.

If were me, I wouldn't rely on a fireman's with a "noob" group. I'd guess I'd err on the side of safety.

-Brian in SLC

**shaggy125** · 06-04-2008, 10:25 AM

You need to be watching the rappeler not just to make sure you can stop them, but to make sure you see any rocks they kick down onto your skull while rapping. Many noobs are so nervous they aren't thinking about trying not to kick rocks.

**Iceaxe** · 06-04-2008, 11:02 AM

With the fireman's the belayer needs to pay attention.... and not off playing grabass and chatting with others about making beer call back at the bit-n-spur.

I've had my butt saved by a fireman's before and I have helped others using the fireman's.... so yeah, I'm a fan. And I do suggest not standing directly in the line of rock fall while applying the belay.

Just my 2 cents....

**oldno7** · 06-04-2008, 11:20 AM

One more addition:
If your rapping of a marginal anchor a firemans is probably innapropriate.

No need to start a LAMAR discussion here.

**ratagonia** · 06-04-2008, 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by SLCmntjunkie

I'm curious about what rumors you heard that suggests a fireman's belay is unreliable. I've used it and never had a problem at all stopping the rappeler. I think when using it the belayer needs to be paying attention, often I've seen people lightly holding the rope with there fingertips or with too much slack in the rope, so if the rappeler lost control they may not be prepared to stop them properly.

I'd agree a top belay can be a better option at times though. If I'm with a noob canyoneering, I'd be fine with giving them a fireman's belay but wouldn't send them down last and I'd set up a contingency anchor so someone could lower them down if needed, but I guess that's another topic.

Theory and In Training: bottom belayer is alert, ready and in a good position.

In the Field: bottom belayer is digging into their pack for a PowerBar, relaxed, not in a very good position and not paying attention when the rappeller loses control. Rope whips out of their hand. Game over.

That said, Bottom Belay has saved my bacon on several occassions when I set up my rappel poorly. Me, I only use the best of belayers, so that helps a lot. Thanks Rick. Thanks Chris. You the best!

Tom

**Iceaxe** · 06-05-2008, 09:41 AM

Originally Posted by ratagonia

In the Field: bottom belayer is digging into their pack for a PowerBar, relaxed, not in a very good position and not paying attention

A word of advise if on rappel.... don't be afraid to tell the belayer....

"Hey dumbass, pay attention!!!"

it just might be your life they save.

**hank moon** · 06-05-2008, 10:45 AM