Bolts versus needless risk

[denaliguide]

Rick! X2. well put.

[Brian in SLC]

Is preserving the nature of a canyon(ie, no bolts) worth the needless risk of human life?

From Stevee B a few years back.... I've saved it because it's the most elegant explanation on bolting I have seen to date.

Please don't vandalize canyons that lie above your skill level. You may want to experience them in their undamaged state someday. They will always be there and you have plenty of time. It's not about ego or risk, it's about humility and respect.

Yep.

Then there's this:

Chris stemmed up the slot as far as possible and placed the second of our three bolts by hand drilling. Earlier we had used webbing and a 60-foot rope to construct etriers (a crude rope ladder). Chris clipped the first etrier in and we were on our way. It was not nearly as simple as it sounds and it was extremely time consuming. Chris did most of the difficult and dangerous climbing and kept prodding Hank and I on.

Chris was greatly worried that someone would loose the energy to climb. Chris had already been through a forced bivouac high on El Captain during a snowstorm. Chris told me that when morning came his partners did not have the energy to help with the extraction, and he didn't want to fall victim to the same circumstance.

The first problem with our aid climbing solution was that we only had two bolts remaining with us after already using one to lower Hank earlier. After the second bolt was placed we had to pull the first bolt and repair it to be used again.

Bolt repair became my specialty, I would carefully disassemble all the tiny parts that make up an expansion anchor and bend or hammer them back to their original condition. I would place all the parts inside my hat to work on them. I was terrified that I would drop a part and destroy our escape. The basic thought running through my mind was "don't **** up".

The sandstone we were drilling was like sugar. Often after we completed drilling a hole it would be too large in diameter for the bolt to seat properly. We solved this problem by cutting 3-inch sections of rubber hose from my Camelback and placing them around the bolt. Then we would hammer the bolt with hose into the oversized hole and tighten the nut down with a wrench. Modifying the bolts with the rubber hose also became my responsibility. Everyone was finding a position where they could most help the team escape and smoothly working together. There were no arguments, second-guessing or bickering. Everyone knew what had to be done and how he could best help.

If you talk the talk, don't be afraid to not walk the walk...

Silly bolts. Climbers, who've had a huge head start on this debate, still can't agree on the darn things either. The arguement does get mired down in bravado, ego, chest thumping, territorialism... I mean with climbers. Canyoneers would never be like that... (see the South Face of Half Dome debate on supertopo if you want to kill some serious time on the climbing bolt thing).

What would a reasonable man do?

-Brian in SLC

[oldno7]

what would a reasonable man do?

Place ever how many bolts deemed necessary to make it out of a percieved life or death situation.

what would a unreasonable man do?

Walk up to his best friends door and tell his wife---ya know Mary Beth--we would have placed a bolt and saved Freds life but--it wasn't worth drilling a hole and defiling a canyon. Holler if I can help with your funeral plans.

[tanya]

What would a reasonable man do?

-Brian in SLC

I thought we were talking about canyoneers?

[stefan]

I cringe every time ...

hi rick, welcome to the forum.

would you perchance be rick thompson?

it would be nice if everyone could just do their own thing and leave well enough alone.

i'd like to ask you about this comment here. where do you draw the line?

in your mind, is it okay if people use a G-pick to modify the sandstone? is it okay to bolt anything one chooses? what about scratching your name into the sandstone? and if i should extend this beyond canyoneering, if i want to construct a trail through cryptogamobiotic soil, is it reasonable? how about getting a bunch of OHVs and building my own track?

i ask these questions sincerely for two primary reasons: they share the following to varying degrees, (1) the effects of long-term changes on the land and (2) the effects these long-term changes have on the people who share this land.

i presume the open-mindedness you're showing towards bolting is based on the assumed safety of bolts, the relative ease of inspection (to some), and the immediacy of use. please expound if i have assumed incorrectly.

Demonstrate your own superiority, or your pure devotion to unperforated rock, or whatever it is that drives your holier than thou mentality, and go for it.

umm ... holier than thou? please. i was following your post up until this point. let me ask you. disregarding the fact that we extensively manipulate the world around us, when we consider our wild canyons on the colorado plateau, what suggests that one has the right to install bolts at one's own discretion? yes, there are canyons with bolts, and many use those bolts, even if they don't believe bolts should be added to canyons where there aren't bolts. how do we get to the idea of let everyone do their own thing? and again, where do you draw the line. (everyone, of course, draws it at different points.)

also, i would like to understand where the difference might lie. is it holier than thou to believe that folks should avoid walking on cryptobiotic soil? not impact ruins and rock art? not build tracks in untrammeled landscape at one's own discretion?



[quote]
First of all, that

[hank moon]

Does ranting against the HTT crowd place one in the HTHTT crowd?

[ratagonia]

this is an often used rap station. is this really more asethic than 2 bolts and some chain? it's certainly not safer.

Nice pic.

This was the "before" picture right? You guys cleaned up this big stinkin pile of litter and reduced it to the minimum required to get the job done, right?

Did you take an "after" picture, too?

When I walk a trail in Zion, and see a candy wrapper on the ground, I pick it up and carry it out. Same for excessive webbing on rappel anchors. Rap anchors in popular areas acquire amazing quantities of colorful nylon. Please help by picking up the litter that you see in canyons.

But... let me follow your argument.

Because some people leave a lot of litter behind, we should, as a community, put in litter that is more robust, harder to inspect and contributes to a false sense of security?

Are you one of the people who, in this example, left a whole bunch of litter behind?

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

This was the "before" picture right? You guys cleaned up this big stinkin pile of litter and reduced it to the minimum required to get the job done, right?

Why would they? This is the style. In fact, of you look on someone's website, its says,

"(insert your canyon area here) is a traditional-style canyoneering area. Please do not place bolts."

Well, you gotta take the bad with the worse, in this case. Either way, you end up with litter. Either a whole bunch, or, not as much.

When I walk a trail in Zion, and see a candy wrapper on the ground, I pick it up and carry it out. Same for excessive webbing on rappel anchors. Rap anchors in popular areas acquire amazing quantities of colorful nylon. Please help by picking up the litter that you see in canyons.

Yeah, amazing quantities. Like buried deadman. Miles of sling material. All the heavy handed construction that passes for "unnatural" anchoring. At least you can casually pick up litter. This other stuff is like building a condo. Then, on top of it, we get printed guidebooks and beta spraying websites, and, even guide services inviting the masses to enjoy these fruits. Heck, come one, come all, never mind the consequenses. Really, are the folks profiting from these canyons on public land any different than mining, logging or cattle grazing? Exploitation, pure and simple. Makin' a buck off recreation on public land. Where's your grazing permit? Moooooo. Wish them cattle would stay in the corral. Dang it, Bessie, don't eat that loco weed! Ahh, look what she done now, she pooped all over the rock. Heck, that there is natural.

Because some people leave a lot of litter behind, we should, as a community, put in litter that is more robust, harder to inspect and contributes to a false sense of security?

False sense of security? Like guidebook beta, website guides, guide services all selling adventure on public land like some mickey mouse disney land? Then, having the gall to complain that, oh my, there's litter now? You reap what you sew. Who's the seamstress? Can I get an amen?

Are you one of the people who, in this example, left a whole bunch of litter behind?

Is this goading someone on? My bet is you and your ilk have left a TON more litter in your "unnatural" canyon descents that anyone placing bolted anchors. You could measure your litter in bulk, by weight, by volume, whatever unit of measure you want. How much sling, webbing, rope do you go through each year? How many tons of building material in the form of dirt, rocks, tree bits, gravel do you move? Compare that to the same anchors done with bolts. Bolts, if done right, that would last a community many many years without replacement. A re-usable and sustainable resource, versus digging, burying, leaving, moving, stacking all the material you've affected in the last number of years, in your 100+ canyon days per year. That amount of material would boggle the mind, and fill up many garbage cans. Shoot, most gravel companies and earth movers should be takin' notes.

Carbon footprint, hell, what's your canyon footprint? Makes me think of Coolhand Luke. "I can eat fifty eggs". Now its, "I can rap off a stack of rocks." "Whoa, that's a big drop". "I'll just bury a pack, and use more rocks". Yeah, go man, go.

The point is, you wouldn't have to cut out webbing, slings, ropes, cord, etc, if the anchor didn't contain any of those items, which need replacing and adding to ad infinitum, every month, season, year, over and over. It has an effect. Its not finite, like a nicely bolted anchor is finite.

Has less to do with ability than it does the ego of folks who would dictate the style that others are forced to follow. Instead of saying, "this is a bolt free zone", why not call it what it really is, "this is MY bolt free zone".

Bolt all the drops. You wankers are just playing these silly games to boost your shallow little egos so folks think you're bad ass. Its frickin' rappelling, about the lowest skill of all, after all. Way to go into making it some sport like golf, with all these complicated descending systems and rules. Bolt it, and take the ego out of it, and be done with it. Silly, silly little children. Its not your playground. You will be punished. Now, go stand in the corner and take a time out.

All you really do is descend. Something a less than trained monkey could do. "Ohh, but we use really bad anchors, we're so hardcorp". Yeah, whatever.

What were we talking about again?

-Brian in SLC

[oldno7]

Would I be going out on a limb here to suggest that "maybe" the biggest anti bolt advocates have placed the most bolts?


I'm sure glad none of this has to do with common sense because that would suggest--use all natural anchors until safety becomes an issue.

[neumannbruce]

We need anchors to do slot canyons. Bolts & Webbing are considered litter. The effects of bolts will be there thousands of years long after their useful life is over. I believe we should leave as little trace as possible so that humans thousands of years from now can experience the place as we did. There might be an occasional chunk of webbing hanging out of a sand pile, however it can easily be removed. Removing bolt scars isn

[stefan]

Would I be going out on a limb here to suggest that "maybe" the biggest anti bolt advocates have placed the most bolts?

you sure do to seem try to paint people as "hypocrites," to use your word of choice, kurt (re: the enviro forum).

simple counterexample, steve allen's one of the biggest anti-bolt advocates and has never placed a bolt. there are many others. some have placed bolts for various reasons and have come to believe and advocate what they believe. that's the way the world turns.

what's your point?

[oldno7]

Would I be going out on a limb here to suggest that "maybe" the biggest anti bolt advocates have placed the most bolts?

you sure do to seem try to paint people as "hypocrites," to use your word of choice, kurt (re: the enviro forum).

simple counterexample, steve allen's one of the biggest anti-bolt advocates and has never placed a bolt. there are many others. some have placed bolts for various reasons and have come to believe and advocate what they believe. that's the way the world turns.

what's your point?

I was simply asking a question hence the question mark.

Your Steve Alan example is a good one.

I was asking a question, you came up with the hypocrite adjective.

This is the bolt war--there is no point

[Randi]

This was the
"before" picture right? You guys cleaned up this big
stinkin pile of litter and reduced it to the minimum
required to get the job done, right?

Cabe:Why would they? This is the style. In fact, of you
look on someone's website, its says,
"(insert your canyon area here) is a traditional-style
canyoneering area. Please do not place bolts."

Well, you gotta take the bad with the worse, in this
case. Either way, you end up with litter. Either a
whole bunch, or, not as much.

ratagonia:When I walk a trail in Zion, and see a candy
wrapper on the ground, I pick it up and carry it out.
Same for excessive webbing on rappel anchors. Rap
anchors in popular areas acquire amazing quantities of
colorful nylon. Please help by picking up the litter
that you see in canyons.

Cabe: Yeah, amazing quantities. Like
buried deadman. Miles of sling material. All the
heavy handed construction that passes for "unnatural"
anchoring. At least you can casually pick up litter.
This other stuff is like building a condo. Then, on
top of it, we get printed guidebooks and beta spraying
websites, and, even guide services inviting the masses
to enjoy these fruits. Heck, come one, come all,
never mind the consequenses. Really, are the folks
profiting from these canyons on public land any
different than mining, logging or cattle grazing?
Exploitation, pure and simple. Makin' a buck off
recreation on public land. Where's your grazing
permit? Moooooo. Wish them cattle would stay in the
corral. Dang it, Bessie, don't eat that loco weed!
Ahh, look what she done now, she pooped all over the
rock. Heck, that there is natural.

[color=blue]It

[rick t]

Thank you Brian, well done. Another a little over the top response in an attempt to some balance to the discussion, which is often dominated by the anti bolt crowd. Before I address Stefans lengthy cross examination I will first say that I don

[ratagonia]

Would I be going out on a limb here to suggest that "maybe" the biggest anti bolt advocates have placed the most bolts?

I'm sure glad none of this has to do with common sense because that would suggest--use all natural anchors until safety becomes an issue.

Perhaps you mean ME, ol' Numero Septo?

I am never shy to form and share an opinion. There are good places for bolts in canyons (in large part limited to Zion) and I have placed quite a few. There's a good chance I have placed more bolts than any other individual for canyoneering in Utah in the last 10 years.

But there are many places bolts do not belong, even in Zion. I believe I have also REMOVED more bolts from canyons in Utah in the last 10 years than any other individual. I have even removed a number of my own bolts.

My total count is probably still on the positive side.

====

But enough of the bragging, back to the argument.

"...use all natural anchors until safety becomes an issue..."

Safety is ALWAYS an issue. You put your life on an anchor, you should know it is good. Period. Natural, manufactured-natural or wholly artificial - anchors need to be 100% solid.

The claim: "natural = unsafe; bolts = safe" is a false dichotomy. Ain't true.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

[quote=Poer]Gotta agree with you of course Brian on some intrinsic level, but what you

[oldno7]

Is preserving the nature of a canyon(ie, no bolts) worth the needless risk of human life?

From Stevee B a few years back.... I've saved it because it's the most elegant explanation on bolting I have seen to date.

Please don't vandalize canyons that lie above your skill level. You may want to experience them in their undamaged state someday. They will always be there and you have plenty of time. It's not about ego or risk, it's about humility and respect.

Yep.

Then there's this:

Chris stemmed up the slot as far as possible and placed the second of our three bolts by hand drilling. Earlier we had used webbing and a 60-foot rope to construct etriers (a crude rope ladder). Chris clipped the first etrier in and we were on our way. It was not nearly as simple as it sounds and it was extremely time consuming. Chris did most of the difficult and dangerous climbing and kept prodding Hank and I on.

Chris was greatly worried that someone would loose the energy to climb. Chris had already been through a forced bivouac high on El Captain during a snowstorm. Chris told me that when morning came his partners did not have the energy to help with the extraction, and he didn't want to fall victim to the same circumstance.

The first problem with our aid climbing solution was that we only had two bolts remaining with us after already using one to lower Hank earlier. After the second bolt was placed we had to pull the first bolt and repair it to be used again.

Bolt repair became my specialty, I would carefully disassemble all the tiny parts that make up an expansion anchor and bend or hammer them back to their original condition. I would place all the parts inside my hat to work on them. I was terrified that I would drop a part and destroy our escape. The basic thought running through my mind was "don't f*** up".

The sandstone we were drilling was like sugar. Often after we completed drilling a hole it would be too large in diameter for the bolt to seat properly. We solved this problem by cutting 3-inch sections of rubber hose from my Camelback and placing them around the bolt. Then we would hammer the bolt with hose into the oversized hole and tighten the nut down with a wrench. Modifying the bolts with the rubber hose also became my responsibility. Everyone was finding a position where they could most help the team escape and smoothly working together. There were no arguments, second-guessing or bickering. Everyone knew what had to be done and how he could best help.

If you talk the talk, don't be afraid to not walk the walk...

Silly bolts. Climbers, who've had a huge head start on this debate, still can't agree on the darn things either. The arguement does get mired down in bravado, ego, chest thumping, territorialism... I mean with climbers. Canyoneers would never be like that... (see the South Face of Half Dome debate on supertopo if you want to kill some serious time on the climbing bolt thing).

What would a reasonable man do?

-Brian in SLC

No rebuttal??
I would say the statement contradicts the story.
Stefan would label this hypocrisy.

[ratagonia]

This was the "before" picture right? You guys cleaned up this big stinkin pile of litter and reduced it to the minimum required to get the job done, right?

Why would they? This is the style. In fact, of you look on someone's website, its says,

"(insert your canyon area here) is a traditional-style canyoneering area. Please do not place bolts."

Well, you gotta take the bad with the worse, in this case. Either way, you end up with litter. Either a whole bunch, or, not as much.
...
-Brian in SLC

Oh my!! And to think, it was probably my prompting that encouraged you to get into the same-old-same-old conversation - but I was not thinking with half a fifth of Captain Morgan's Truth Serum as a synapse lubricant - though it does seem to have GOTTEN YOU GOING, didn't it. Hope the morning after was not too rough!!!

Tom

[ratagonia]

[quote=rick t] And I am not going to argue with them. Or endanger others by then taking it upon myself to pull those bolts because I don

[Iceaxe]

Would I be going out on a limb here to suggest that "maybe" the biggest anti bolt advocates have placed the most bolts?

For the record... since I consider myself strong "anti-bolt".... I have removed every bolt I have ever placed with the exception of one. I will eventually yank that critter also....