Bolts versus needless risk

[ratagonia]

I will be the first to admit my natural anchor skills need to be upgraded (to more of an advanced set). I need to go out with others more experienced (want to go?). For this reason I stay away from those more complex anchor problem canyons.

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[rockgremlin]

More info and direct download: http://downloads.bs.com/naturalanchors.html

Tom

[trackrunner]

More info and direct download: http://downloads.bs.com/naturalanchors.html

Tom

All I got was a link to porn

[ratagonia]

More info and direct download: http://downloads.bs.com/naturalanchors.html

Tom

All I got was a link to porn

These days, ANY link to a non-existant site ends up at a porn-link site. It's Hef's rule, or something.

Tom

[trackrunner]

More info and direct download: http://downloads.bs.com/naturalanchors.html

Tom

All I got was a link to porn

These days, ANY link to a non-existant site ends up at a porn-link site. It's Hef's rule, or something.

Tom

I know I'm just giving you a hard time back

[qedcook]

I've always wondered. What's the purpose of cleaning a well-secured, safe bolt once it has been placed? Isn't the damage already done? The point of a bolt-free zone is to preserve the natural fell of the canyon, right? But if you clean a bolt, there's still the hole. Despite my more lenient stance on bolts, I've never placed one and probably never will, simply because I don't want to be the jerk the ruined the canyon for everyone else. But it seems like cleaning a perfectly good bolt is almost as jerky of a thing to do to. No one owns the canyons so no one should place or clean a bolt unless it's necessary.

[stefan]

I've always wondered. What's the purpose of cleaning a well-secured, safe bolt once it has been placed? Isn't the damage already done? The point of a bolt-free zone is to preserve the natural fell of the canyon, right? But if you clean a bolt, there's still the hole.

actually, as i understand it, a bolt can be removed and filled in with epoxy and sand to bring it back to something closer to what it was, certainly as far as our perception goes.

[oldno7]

I love bolts. Sometimes I just place one in a no bolt canyon for fun.
I think that peoples civil rights are being violated if they cannot get through a canyon because of lack of bolts.(life, liberty, pursuit of happiness) I also believe that all canyons should be bolted into ADA compliance. It's a disgrace that some of you go through canyons with no regard to those less fortunate than yourselfs.
I guess I'll save the road into every canyon for another thread.

[stefan]

I love bolts. Sometimes I just place one in a no bolt canyon for fun.
I think that peoples civil rights are being violated if they cannot get through a canyon because of lack of bolts.(life, liberty, pursuit of happiness) I also believe that all canyons should be bolted into ADA compliance. It's a disgrace that some of you go through canyons with no regard to those less fortunate than yourselfs.
I guess I'll save the road into every canyon for another thread.

please tell us what you really think.

[Iceaxe]

Is preserving the nature of a canyon(ie, no bolts) worth the needless risk of human life?

From Stevee B a few years back.... I've saved it because it's the most elegant explanation on bolting I have seen to date.

Please don't vandalize canyons that lie above your skill level. You may want to experience them in their undamaged state someday. They will always be there and you have plenty of time. It's not about ego or risk, it's about humility and respect.

[rockgremlin]

I love bolts. Sometimes I just place one in a no bolt canyon for fun.
I think that peoples civil rights are being violated if they cannot get through a canyon because of lack of bolts.(life, liberty, pursuit of happiness) I also believe that all canyons should be bolted into ADA compliance. It's a disgrace that some of you go through canyons with no regard to those less fortunate than yourselfs.
I guess I'll save the road into every canyon for another thread.

I used to think like that. Now I prefer no bolts. What will you do when your opinion changes at some point as well? Will you go pull all of the bolts you have placed in the past to match your current opinion?

[oldno7]

I love bolts. Sometimes I just place one in a no bolt canyon for fun.
I think that peoples civil rights are being violated if they cannot get through a canyon because of lack of bolts.(life, liberty, pursuit of happiness) I also believe that all canyons should be bolted into ADA compliance. It's a disgrace that some of you go through canyons with no regard to those less fortunate than yourselfs.
I guess I'll save the road into every canyon for another thread.

I used to think like that. Now I prefer no bolts. What will you do when your opinion changes at some point as well? Will you go pull all of the bolts you have placed in the past to match your current opinion?

I thought this was "out there" far enough that some would get a good laugh, now I know I needed a bit more extremism.(even when I lean left I'm "right")
Did I mention the bolt hangers I've been polishing, man they shine

[moab mark]

First I want to say I have not had enough experience in many of these canyons that are being discussed. So maybe i shouldn't even be asking but with that stated, is a couple of well placed bolts (the term well placed is key which is hard to control I understand) better or worse then people leaving lengths and lengths of webbing on natural anchors that are not close enough to the edge or a deadman has to be built which requires leaving webbing behind? Do we consider this littering or just part of the game? Yes it can be cleaned up by some one else and the bolt is permanent but visually what is more of an eye sore. If natural anchors can be ghosted then this is mute. But just in my short experience walking up and seeing webbing laying all over the place isn't to pleasing. A small example is Dragon Fly in moab. Desert Highlights uses a toad stool to rappell the first small drop. It is a long ways from the edge. It is getting serious rope and webbing marks in it that are making it hard to retrieve. When you get to the third rappell a rope has been place placed around a hugh rock that is easily 50 to 100 ft? from the edge. To rig this takes alot of gear and a rope is being left around the rock. Or there is a rock over to the side that has webbing around it that just stays there and rotts in the sun. The picture in mindbender of the deadman looks solid but those rocks had to come from somewhere and stacked up. Now when the next group comes they have to find more rocks etc. Do we feel this is better or worse then a few bolts.
In my other activity, jeeping, stacking rocks is a big arguement. Rocks are carried from long distances through unfortunately lots of bio crypto soil to help make and obstacle capable for lesser jeeps to get up. THe jeep club has even gone out on some of the more diffucult obstacles and put in big BOLTS to winch off of. Which is better?
Mark

[denaliguide]

this is an often used rap station. is this really more asethic than 2 bolts and some chain? it's certainly not safer.

[moab mark]

I find it interesting that everywhere I have been in Zion has bolts. THis is probably due to the amount of traffic etc. Everybody seems to complain about them but I haven't seen many deadmans etc. by a set of bolts. Are most of thes bolts safe? Probably. But if you leave Zion it seems everyone is NO BOLTS. So with the popularity of this sport growing. Those of you who have the skill to place bolts properly, should you be placing some in key spots in other canyons where you know it is only a matter of time before a noobie comes along and places a couple of scratchy bolts? (MindBender). The masses are coming to this sport. I am one of them. The adventure and scenery is hard to stay away from. So it seems that this is going to become the problem in the near future. I know if everyone would get more training on natural anchors, which I agree with but that will be a very small percentage. Most people learn as they go. In this sport that can be dangerous, but that's human nature. They have a buddy that takes them and away they go.

[stefan]

I find it interesting that everywhere I have been in Zion has bolts. THis is probably due to the amount of traffic etc. Everybody seems to complain about them but I haven't seen many deadmans etc. by a set of bolts. Are most of thes bolts safe? Probably. But if you leave Zion it seems everyone is NO BOLTS. So with the popularity of this sport growing. Those of you who have the skill to place bolts properly, should you be placing some in key spots in other canyons where you know it is only a matter of time before a noobie comes along and places a couple of scratchy bolts? (MindBender). The masses are coming to this sport. I am one of them. The adventure and scenery is hard to stay away from. So it seems that this is going to become the problem in the near future. I know if everyone would get more training on natural anchors, which I agree with but that will be a very small percentage. Most people learn as they go. In this sport that can be dangerous, but that's human nature. They have a buddy that takes them and away they go.

the masses HAVE come ... this is an issue that has already seen the light of day and will be no different as time goes on. the idea is to promote the acquiring of skills to manage problems without the general use of bolts. this has been one goal of webforums, canyoneering courses, and some guidebooks/websites over the past decade and beyond.

the mantra i learned from steve allen was ... (paraphrased) bring the skills of your group up to the level of the canyon, don't bring the canyon down to the level of your skills.

while this might sound snobbish or harsh, i think of it more as a fundamental sign of respect for the canyon.

i don't think that this is the philosophy most have for ALL canyons. there are many canyons which have been bolted and are maintained so; zion seems to be the bastion of these. but even so, there are many canyons in zion which aren't bolted and can be maintained au natural.

i do believe that, outside of a certain subset of canyons, the ethic should be to solve problems without bolts or semi-permanent hardware (except in extremely special cases) and to minimize permanent changes/damage caused by equipment and hiking.

this mindset has been shown to be feasible and there are many on these forums who not only promote such skills but share them either in the "classroom" or by just taking folks out on trips. as more enter the sport i think guidebooks/websites will importantly serve to maintain/promote this ethic.

but i don't see how just because more people want in on the "activity" the activity should necessarily change its ethics, especially since most anyone has the ability to acquire the necessary skills.

[rockgremlin]

but i don't see how just because more people want in on the "activity" the activity should necessarily change its ethics, especially since most anyone has the ability to acquire the necessary skills.

yup....education, education, education...

problem solving is part of the sport. bolt-slamming sort of short circuits that aspect.

[rick t]

I cringe every time i see this endless debate coming around again, as most everyones opinions are already set in stone, and nothing ever changes. As often as not some forum newcomer triggers this, stumbling into this minefield with an innocent question. The arrogant and self righteous puritans immediately respond, whether it

[Jaxx]

wow. well put.

[rockgremlin]

WOW!! One of the most eloquent bolt discourses I've read in a long time! Thanks Rick. I found myself laughing and agreeing with you throughout most of it.

I'm a non-bolt guy who used to be a pro-bolt guy. But I'm not so non-bolt that I carry a crowbar around with me, determined to foist my opinions and ethics on others. However, I DO think bolts SHOULD be removed if they have been placed improperly, or are weathered and unsafe.

I also agree that bolt usage isn't something that we can avoid altogether (I can't see even the most vocal non-bolters out there rapping from the Bird's Perch in Heaps from a rock cairn).

All of this said, I place a high degree of importance on education in this sport. There are so many variables out there. Each canyon is different with it's own different and unique set of challenges, and to limit one's skill set is risky.