Bolts versus needless risk

[jman]

hmm...all of this is very interesting to say the least.

So, a question now - how would one create a natural anchor at the 2nd to last rappel in Mystery Canyon (actually into Mystery Spring with the floating disconnect)? My only idea, would be to use a LONG amount of webbing, or wrap webbing around one of the rocks on the north side of the drop...but then again - that's a long way to fall for a mistake. But the bolts there aren't in sandstone which is more more reassuring, specifically on this rappel.

[ratagonia]

hmm...all of this is very interesting to say the least.

So, a question now - how would one create a natural anchor at the 2nd to last rappel in Mystery Canyon (actually into Mystery Spring with the floating disconnect)? My only idea, would be to use a LONG amount of webbing, or wrap webbing around one of the rocks on the north side of the drop...but then again - that's a long way to fall for a mistake. But the bolts there aren't in sandstone which is more more reassuring, specifically on this rappel.

There is a huge chockstone at the head of the watercourse. Rap down from that, then under the huge boulder and down into the spring. The start would probably be very difficult.

I have not heard anyone suggest that the bolts should be removed at this rappel.

Tom

[qedcook]

A large part of the intention is to discourage further bolting. I do this BECAUSE I think it is dangerous as a 'general solution' in wilderness canyons to expect bolts to be there (and to thus be unable to create anchors using natural materials on demand).

But really, I am most concerned about people going into canyons thinking "all the anchors are taken care of", like these are sport climbs or something. They're not.

I agree for the most part.

I enthusiastically support your RIGHT to place any bolt you feel is necessary for your safety. I made a careful evaluation that the bolts at this drop do not contribute to the safety of the community, and in fact have a negative impact (see above).

fair enough. I wasn't there.

Perhaps the moderators could run a poll.

That's pretty darn cool, the polling, but it's only a poll of the site, not the community.

My apologies if it sounds flippant or is stated in a flippant manner, but we are deadly serious. The skills required to build strong, reliable, tested natural anchors can be...

I'd be glad to teach these skills at any time. Perhaps we should arrange a North Wash trip...

That's part of why the comments got under my skin a little bit. I've had a ton of training in all canyoneering skills. I've built over a dozen deadman's and am adamant (though sadly not as much as yourself) about people knowing what they're doing when they are in the canyons. I simply feel bolts should be used a bit more than they are in certain situations.

I also want to make sure you know I appreciate everything you do for the sport and hope and know you recognize the importance of dissenting opinions. Let's continue to hope that the right anchor is used for every drop so everyone remains safe.

[ratagonia]

hmm...all of this is very interesting to say the least.

But the bolts there aren't in sandstone which is more more reassuring, specifically on this rappel.

Sandstone varies quite a bit in hardness. That sandstone there, pretty solid I think, but sandstone none the less.

Tom

[jman]

hmm...all of this is very interesting to say the least.

But the bolts there aren't in sandstone which is more more reassuring, specifically on this rappel.

Sandstone varies quite a bit in hardness. That sandstone there, pretty solid I think, but sandstone none the less.

Tom

that's true it does. And that rappel would be a tough one to pull the ropes if ya did a natural anchor on the giant boulder at the edge of the cliff...good luck to that person/group.