If you know Smith and Wesson .45s, I need your help.

[JP]

I'm not here to debate your way of thinking, I'm here hopefully helping Jim getting into this new gun ownership the correct way. He had a gun in his family he now acquired, he wants to take it hiking, do it legally. One day it may save his life and even better if he never has to use it.

Black bears at night or day, I have pics of them in the day. Again. Night shots and placement, up close, not a problem. What do you think Law Enforcement does at night? Hang up the gun? Low light, up close and personal is the environment some of these guys work in, they'll hit you and a bear. Without question. Comes down to practice. If you're using your sights at close range, you're right, you might not be defending yourself in time. Who uses sights in tight combat type quarters anyways, dead victims. Again, it's all in how you train. Reactionary, muscle memory. I don't even have the time to explain this, other than, it works. Real life, it works. Even documented where I work. Shooting someone is the last thing anybody wants to do. But, sometimes it's the only choice. A choice that remains with you always, but at the end of the day, you're home with your wife and kids. Safely.

Beautiful sunny day and what did I see sitting up against a telephone pole, scratching his back and wallowing in the sunshine;





And this is Connecticut, far more residential areas than bountiful Utah. We shouldn't worry about Black Bear, probably not. But momma with her young nearby, maybe so.

[parrothead_madness]

And, hey, need 10 opinions? Ask 3 gun nuts...

QFT. Most accurate statement I've read on the interwebz today!

[BruteForce]

Great discussion and thread hijack (by all of us), but who in their right mind goes hiking with a 500? That's quite the cannon!

Most folks have a .38, .380, 9mm, .40, .45 or even a 10mm as a personal protection firearm; anything bigger than those is for hunting or massive target practice and is not practical for hiking, 4wheeling, camping, etc.

So, if all you have is a .45 ACP, ensure you know how to shoot it (muscle memory, aiming, etc) and you have the most powerful ammunition you can afford.

[Gutpiler_Utahn]

Great discussion and thread hijack (by all of us), but who in their right mind goes hiking with a 500? That's quite the cannon!

Most folks have a .38, .380, 9mm, .40, .45 or even a 10mm as a personal protection firearm; anything bigger than those is for hunting or massive target practice and is not practical for hiking, 4wheeling, camping, etc.

So, if all you have is a .45 ACP, ensure you know how to shoot it (muscle memory, aiming, etc) and you have the most powerful ammunition you can afford.

Agreed. Penetration or not, a .45 ACP delivers a lot of kenetic energy and unless the bear is intent on eating you or protecting its cubs, it's gonna feel it and likely decide this gnat isn't worth the effort. Personally, I'm torn between the .357 or the .44. Either way, it'll be a Taurus with a ported barrell. I can't remember if the .357 is 7 or 9 shots but the .44 is 5 shots.

Getting back to it, though, the best side arm you can have is the one you know the best.

[BruteForce]

My daily carry/setup:

Springfield Arms XD .40 SubCompact .40S&W, 155grain Ranger Hollow Points
15 round extended clip
extra 10 round standard subcompact clip
Carson Design M16-14ZSF folder

[JP]

LOL, that's the great thing about the .45 auto's...mad momma bear or not, feel free to use the contents of the magazine Yes, .45 has all that one would need.

I choose not to carry, but here she is.

[BruteForce]

LOL, that's the great thing about the .45 auto's...mad momma bear or not, feel free to use the contents of the magazine Yes, .45 has all that one would need.

I choose not to carry, but here she is.

Did you really spray paint a Glock? Wow!

[JP]

Did you really spray paint a Glock? Wow!

How the heck did you come up with that No, it's not painted...It's just a Glock

[Glockguy]

Quick story...a guy I used to work with bowhunted for black bear. He shot one, wounded it, and it crawled into some brush. Being a bit of a doorknob, he grabs his .45 ACP and heads in after it (yeah, totally illegal). Finds it pantin' and laying down, so, he thinks, easy money, I'll stuff a couple rounds into it, after all, its already wounded and I'll just finish it off. Shoots it, and, the thing gets up and charges him. So, he empties the clip, running, reloads, empties another clip, and the thing finally collapses. When he gutted and caped it out, he said he hit it nearly every time. Just, no penetration. What he thinks actually killed it was his initial arrow placement that went through enough vital to finally bleed it out. Wild story.

It's a magazine not a clip.

[parrothead_madness]

It's a magazine not a clip.

Thank you That has been sitting there like nails on a chalkboard for me and I didn't want to say it!

[Brian in SLC]

Agreed. Penetration or not, a .45 ACP delivers a lot of kenetic energy and unless the bear is intent on eating you or protecting its cubs, it's gonna feel it and likely decide this gnat isn't worth the effort.

Nah, a .45 ACP does NOT deliver any where near the kinetic energy of even a .357 magnum. Remember, KE = 1/2 m X velocity squared. The mass of the bullet is a player, but the square of the velocity is a WAY bigger player.

Pretty common to find ammo even for a .357 magnum that exceeds a 1000 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle. Not as common for a .45 ACP to exceed 500 foot pounds (hence the hunting restrictions on handguns based on muzzle energy). And, when you shoot a shorter barrel, you get even less energy (for the compact folks out there). A short barrel can really effect the energy a bullet has. It goes down by the square of the velocity, so, is effected by a shorter barrel which won't have a high a velocity of a longer barrel.

A gun that makes a noise might be effective bear protection, kinda like a fire cracker. What would be interesting though, is what a wounded bear would do. Might be worse than a scared bear? Dunno. Hopefully something most of us avoid forever.

Anyone read, "The Year Long Day"? Norwegian polar bear hunter who chronicals a year of bear hunting in the arctic. One of the situations he ends up in, is, he's in a cabin, its cold and dark out, and he's pulled his down sleeping bag up over his head and it has one of them draw strings which he accidently puts a knot in to keep the bag tight around his face. A bear breaks into the cabin, looking for food. Reminded me of the Gary Larsen cartoon of the polar bears shaking an igloo and exclaiming, "crunchy on the outside, soft and chewy in the middle". Anyhoo, he wrigglin' around in his bag, trying desparately to get the cord untied, and the bear takes a swipe at the sleeping bag, then gets amused by the down feathers in the air, and starts playing with the floating feathers. Gives the guy enough time to effect an escape, into the storage room where his gun (a huge 8mm or some such) is. But, as the bear is charging him and pinning him in the storage space, there isn't enough room to level the gun and get a shot off.

Pretty amazing book, with some super close calls. Very recommended reading if you can find it.

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[Brian in SLC]

Black bears at night or day, I have pics of them in the day. Again. Night shots and placement, up close, not a problem. What do you think Law Enforcement does at night? Hang up the gun? Low light, up close and personal is the environment some of these guys work in, they'll hit you and a bear. Without question. Comes down to practice. If you're using your sights at close range, you're right, you might not be defending yourself in time. Who uses sights in tight combat type quarters anyways, dead victims. Again, it's all in how you train. Reactionary, muscle memory. I don't even have the time to explain this, other than, it works. Real life, it works. Even documented where I work.

No doubt that kind of training would be mucho beneficial in any scenario.

But...the most likely scenario involving a potential fatality with regard to a black bear, would be the one at night, where you're the food source (or the candy bar, soda pop, toothpaste). So, there you are, ala that poor kid in American Fork Canyon last year, in the tent, probably asleep. A predatory bear attacks. I just think the odds that someone will effectively kill a bear in that scenario are pretty low. They'd go up a TON with the type of training you reference above, but...realistically, I dunno. Better'n nothing.

It does no good to relate these types of scary bear stories on the 'net. Best left for a really dark nights, around a lonely campfire, many miles away from the car... Ha ha.

CT? I might be in your neck of the woods in a week or three. Hoping to climb at Ragged Mountain...

Carrying a .500 Smith? Anyone see that emergency kit thing that Smith put out a year or two back? Was a waterproof box, .500 Smith, bright orange grips. Wild stuff. I can't imagine how much that rig would boot. Local store has one here. Crazy.

Wow, found a link: http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/w...02&isFirearm=Y

Smith & Wesson Model 500, 2 3/4" Barrel with Bright Orange Hogue

[Glockguy]

You could attend this course:

http://www.gunsite.com/courses/rifle.html

Predator Defense

Gunsite's "Back-Country Firearms Skills" class can prepare you for an unwelcomed encounter with predatory or aggressive bears, cats and other large animals in the wilderness. This intensive five day course is NOT a hunting class. The class focuses on preparing individuals for unintentional and potential deadly encounters with dangerous animals.

Students will work with both handguns and longarms, learning to manipulate both in practical field scenarios. Topics range from working and living with firearms in the field, practical ballistics for up-close defensive shooting, pre-emptive strategies and tactics, low light and night defense elements, transitioning between handguns and long arms, group defense skills, carry positions and vehicle/vessel/stock animal mounts and more.

Cost: $1600

Duration: 5 days

Prerequisite: None

Ammunition: 400 rounds of pistol ammo, 300 rounds of long gun ammo (slugs if shotguns are to be used), 25 rounds of buckshot. Ammunition management devices are suggested.

[JP]

CT? I might be in your neck of the woods in a week or three. Hoping to climb at Ragged Mountain...

New Hampshire's? That's about three hours from me. Not a bad drive at all. New Hampshire gets the

[Brian in SLC]

CT? I might be in your neck of the woods in a week or three. Hoping to climb at Ragged Mountain...

New Hampshire's? That's about three hours from me. Not a bad drive at all.

Even closer...

http://raggedmtn.org/pn/

Just south of Hartford.

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[BruteForce]

I'm thinking jimflint decided that we just hijacked his thread enough.

Guy was just looking for help in using his shiney new .45ACP and we all give him guidance on how (or not) to defend against a bear in the woods!

[JP]

Even closer...

http://raggedmtn.org/pn/

Just south of Hartford.

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

I never knew that was it's name. I saw the picture and I said that looks a lot like Middletown/ Southington area. Southington's formation like that was always called, Southington Mountain. There's only a few places in our State with red rock like that. Since that's the case, it's only about 20 or so minutes from me. Let me know and I'll head over there when you're here. Those formations are basically Between I-84 and I-91 on I-691. (Middletown, Meriden & Southington)