If you know Smith and Wesson .45s, I need your help.

[Wasatch Rebel]

I borrowed this gun from my dad's arsenal (my dad died last year, so I borrowed it from my mom who really knows nothing about it), so that I'd have a significant protection weapon when my family, including my two todler granddaughters, go camping this summer in bear country. The gun is a Smith and Wesson .45 model 4506--semi-auto. I really know nothing about handguns except for revolvers, so any help you can give me on how this thing works, I'd appreciate a lot. I want to go out and learn to use it before I have to use it---and hopefully, I won't have to use it.

[denaliguide]

find a shooting range in your area. theres probably a pro there that can walk you through the safety measures, and how to load and strip it down. i'm sure they will also offer courses too.

[Wasatch Rebel]

Thanks. That's a good idea.

[BruteForce]

Doug's Shootn Sports (around 4400 SOuth Redwood) and the public range Lee Kay are great places to practice shooting.

I highly recommend you learn to load, clear, shoot and clean any firearm you're going to be handling.

[Wasatch Rebel]

Doug's Shootn Sports (around 4400 SOuth Redwood) and the public range Lee Kay are great places to practice shooting.

I highly recommend you learn to load, clear, shoot and clean any firearm you're going to be handling.

Thanks. I want to learn all of that stuff. It's about time I did. I know rifles real well, but that's about it.

[DiscGo]

Seriously, the best place to start is a concealed weapons permit class. A good instructor will help you become familiar with your gun, and when and how to use it.


P.S. Less anyone calls me a hypocrite, I don't have my permit. But I have a lot of friends who do, and it is one of my goals for the year.

[parrothead_madness]

Nice! In my humble opinion the 4506 is one of the best autos S&W ever produced, even if it is huge and heavy.
I agree completely, go somewhere that is willing to walk you through field stripping it and reassembly a couple of times. Also since you don't have much experience with auto it will be a good time to have someone look over the pistol, particularly that the decocker operates smoothly, the S&W decocker/safety can be susceptible to crud and takes a bit more disassembly to get it cleaned properly.
I am not as enthusiastic about Doug's though, in fact I wouldn't send anyone there for any reason, ever.

[BruteForce]

I am not as enthusiastic about Doug's though, in fact I wouldn't send anyone there for any reason, ever.

Doug's is fine during the weekday, but evenings and weekends seem to be occupied by gang-banger wannabe's, but what the hey.. I'm armed, they're armed, we can shoot it out!

[Wasatch Rebel]

I am not as enthusiastic about Doug's though, in fact I wouldn't send anyone there for any reason, ever.

What's your place of choice, parrothead?

[Glockguy]

I'm going shooting this Friday at Get Some (Near Sam's Club on State Street in Murray)

If you are not familiar with guns remember the 4 rules of safety:


!. Treat every gun as if it is loaded
2. Don't aim the muzzle at anything you do not want to destroy.
3. Finger OFF the trigger until you are ready to shoot.
4. Be sure of your target and what is behind it.

[tapehoser]

Flint! Good to see you here! I had no idea you were a member!?!

I've sent you an email and you replied as well. Hope to see you at LeeKay soon! Please let me know....schedule is WAY flexible and I can break away at any time.

[parrothead_madness]

I am not as enthusiastic about Doug's though, in fact I wouldn't send anyone there for any reason, ever.

What's your place of choice, parrothead?

On the rare occasion I actually get home to Utah I am blessed to live in Stansbury Park, I usually go to practice across Hwy. 36. I don't know how many more years that will last since a large number of shooters leave giant piles of shotgun shells everywhere. Eventually it will be closed to use.
I sometimes shoot at Impact in West Valley, but not often. My last 3 pistols have come from Impact as well.

The reason I won't go to Doug's anymore is just their incredibly bad service. I stood at the counter for 30 minutes, no one said a word. No "I'll be right with you", nothing. I drove to Impact where they greeted me when I walked in the door and helped me fairly quickly. I then bought a DW 1911, I got a lifetime service warranty, they dropped the price to $25 below Doug's and they were busier to boot. This was not the only time I had bad experiences there, just the worst and last.

[Brian in SLC]

I'd have a significant protection weapon when my family, including my two todler granddaughters, go camping this summer in bear country. The gun is a Smith and Wesson .45 model 4506--semi-auto.

IMHO, you don't have "significant protection" from a bear with a .45 ACP. Very poor choice of caliber for a pistol in bear country.

You'd be better off with just about any magnum revolver, .357 and up (depending on where and the type of bear perhaps).

My ex-bro in law carrys a .45 Long Colt for bear in AK, but, he's retro.

Never been a fan of Smith's autos. They do know their way around revolvers, though.

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[parrothead_madness]

You'd be better off with just about any magnum revolver, .357 and up (depending on where and the type of bear perhaps).

jimflint1, as much as I love the .45 ACP round and I do like the S&W autos, he is right, a magnum revolver would better serve you if bears are the main concern.

[tapehoser]

WRONG, WRONG, and WRONG. Sorry....I get a little excited on this topic.

Utah has black bears. Not grizzly bears, and not Alaskan browns. Just black bears. And it is RARE for a Utah black bear to exceed 300 pounds. They are not invincible. They are not indestructible. If my .45 ACP +P rounds will go through a 300 lb bad guy, they will have no problem penetrating to the vitals of a black bear.

.45 ACP is perfectly suited for Utah's back country, IMHO.

[BruteForce]

I find that my 160 grain hollow point .40 (Ranger ammo) round is more than suitable for anything I would encounter in the Utah wilderness.

It's all in the grain. Some rounds may just pass through, whereas others will do significant damage if you have a tight shot group.

[JP]

Hi Jim.
Without knowing you, I'm just trying to get a grasp on where you stand when it comes to firearms, especially if you're all new to this.

I'm sorry to hear of the loss of your Dad, I lost mine too a few years back.

You took the .45 from his collection? Since every gun he has in his collection is probably registered to him. In Connecticut, the State Police has a division that strictly deals with weapons. From State permits and all laws right on down to a knife. You may want to check into transferring ownership from your Dad to you. This way legally you own the, what the heck, the entire collection. Although you may never have to use this, you want to make sure all is in order to avoid problems. Check and see if your State or County has a Weapons Division that deals with this.

I second getting educated (if you're not) on handguns. Do what you have to do and get a permit or whatever it is needed in Utah to carry, EVEN IF YOU NEVER PLAN ON CARRYING. It's all about the EDUCATION. Bring your wife along. This way you're all on the same page and the kids as well can get properly educated. Guns, the uneducated, home and kids can very well lead to a disaster that no family needs.

As far as the .45... It was developed to stop aggression. We used to carry the 4506 on duty. I carried the 4506-1 (fixed sights, slightly different trigger guard. I believe they considered it back then, 3rd Generation) The round that comes out of that barrel is just under 1/2" (.45) in diameter. It was designed to put a person down and will tackle animals. Comparison to say the 9mm, it's a slow moving round that packs one hell of a punch. In most cases fired into center mass (speaking now of the torso area) the round packs its punch in the body without leaving. All the energy is to the body without over penetrating and having the round continue on down the line due to over-penetrating. Outside of this gun being large, heavy and PIA to carry with regular clothing, it will do what you ask of it...even if the placement of the round is off a tad

I hope I have shed some more light on your new endeavor

Ye Ole Fella


His break


The Ammo (but no longer named the same do to appeasing)


The round

[Brian in SLC]

Pretty interesting opinions on handgun calibers for bears...

My opinion? If you can't legally hunt an animal with a certain pistol, then, really, how can you expect to stop it in a situation that is much more severe than hunting?

You need penetration, not expansion for dangerous game. That's why if you ask anyone who makes bullets, or manufactures ammunition for lion and tigers and bears (oh my), you'll see they emphasize how deep the bullet will penetrate. Call Garrett at Garrett cartridges and get his opinion (makes a darn fine .44 round, tell him thanks!).

I think minimum handgun muzzle energy for hunting is around 500 foot pounds. None of the auto's in .45ACP, 9mm, 40S&W get there. A .357 does in the heavier bullets and higher velocities (1/2 mass with the square of the velocity, of course). There seems to be a debate over the 10mm and hunting...

Now, really, if it was dark and I was in a tent and all I had was a straw and a spit wad, I'd probably use it, versus just becoming an easy late night snack. But, if you really wanted something a bit better than the pepper spray you really should use, or, having to actually practise good bear country camping habits (which most of us ignore) then you have to bump up to a larger pistol cartridge and most likely a revolver, at a minimum.

Quick story...a guy I used to work with bowhunted for black bear. He shot one, wounded it, and it crawled into some brush. Being a bit of a doorknob, he grabs his .45 ACP and heads in after it (yeah, totally illegal). Finds it pantin' and laying down, so, he thinks, easy money, I'll stuff a couple rounds into it, after all, its already wounded and I'll just finish it off. Shoots it, and, the thing gets up and charges him. So, he empties the clip, running, reloads, empties another clip, and the thing finally collapses. When he gutted and caped it out, he said he hit it nearly every time. Just, no penetration. What he thinks actually killed it was his initial arrow placement that went through enough vital to finally bleed it out. Wild story.

An interesting article attached...

And, hey, need 10 opinions? Ask 3 gun nuts...

Cheers!

-Brian in SLC

Handguns for Protection in the Field
By Chuck Hawks

This article is about using a handgun for defense against large predators, principally bears and large cats. In the New World these would include the cougar and jaguar, and black, grizzly, brown, and polar bears. A wolf pack constitutes a somewhat different type of deadly threat. The individual animals are smaller but attack as a group, a very dangerous situation, indeed. All of these predators hunt deer and other (sometimes much larger) game that is the same approximate size as an adult human being. Being the same approximate size as the predators' usual prey is highly undesirable; the implication is that we are at risk when in proximity to these large predators.

So that we have a realistic appreciation of the size of these predators, I am going to use the figures developed by Edward A. Matunas and published in the 47th Edition of the Lyman Reloading Handbook. These are the approximate live weight ranges of full grown males of the species: gray wolf, 75-170 pounds; cougar, 150-250 pounds; jaguar, 200-310 pounds; black bear, 300-650+ pounds; grizzly and brown bear, 700-1600+ pounds; polar bear, 900-1550 pounds.

A powerful rifle is superior to any handgun in killing power, of course, and is the only sensible choice for protection against large bears. But a rifle may not be very handy inside of a tent, or on a trout stream, or for a nature lover or mountain climber to carry on a strenuous hike. For outdoorsmen not engaged in hunting but never the less exposed to the threat of attack by large predators, a handgun is probably the only firearm that offers the requisite portability and leaves the hands free for other activities when not in use.

I know of no database on stopping large predators with a handgun. Such encounters are quite rare, and I doubt there have been enough of them documented since the development of the magnum revolver in 1935 to create a statistically valid database. This is a pity, for without such data we can only estimate, based on our own research and experience, which calibers and loads offer a realistic level of protection. Always assuming that the shooter is capable of doing his or her part, of course, by getting the bullet into an immediately incapacitating place.

Although infrequent, attacks on humans by large predators do happen, and they are increasing in number in North America due to continued human encroachment into wilderness areas, and unwise "endangered species" policies protecting potentially dangerous predators from sport hunting. After a generation or two of not being hunted these large predators lose their fear of man and revert to viewing our species as potential prey.

Because large predators have much tougher hide, muscles, and bone structure than human beings, it is generally felt that increased penetration is necessary compared to successful anti-personnel handgun loads. This favors bullets of robust construction and high sectional density (SD). In addition to powerful ammunition with plenty of penetration, a very reliable repeating handgun is clearly desirable, which eliminates all single shot pistols from consideration. The choices basically come down to an autoloading pistol chambered for some sort of magnum cartridge, of which there are very few, or a revolver chambered for a powerful magnum cartridge, of which there are many.

The most commonly available, reasonably portable, autoloader that might serve our purpose is the Glock Model G20, chambered for the 10mm Auto cartridge. The G-20 is as reliable as a powerful auto gets, and relatively compact. This pistol comes with a 4.6" barrel, is 7.59" in overall length, and weighs only 26.28 ounces. In recent years Glock has promoted the G20 as a hunting pistol. The EAA Witness DA autoloader is also offered in 10mm Auto, and the Colt Delta Elite version of the 1911 Government Model used to be. There are probably others of which I am unaware.

The potential problem is the 10mm Auto cartridge itself. Powerful for a true auto pistol cartridge, it is not particularly impressive when compared to the popular magnum revolver cartridges. The Federal 10mm factory load with a 180 grain high antimony lead bullet has an advertised muzzle velocity (MV) of 1030 fps and muzzle energy (ME) of 425 ft. lbs. This load probably offers about the best penetration that can be had from a 10mm factory load, short of a 200 grain (SD .179) full metal jacketed bullet that offers no possibility of expansion at all. The sectional density of the 180 grain 10mm bullet is only .161, however. Hornady offers a 10mm factory load using their 200 grain jacketed hollow point XTP bullet (MV 1050 fps, ME 490 ft. lbs.). Hornady recommends this bullet for "medium game," which would presumably include wolf, cougar, jaguar and black bear but not grizzly, brown and polar bear.

There are a many makes and models of magnum revolvers in the marketplace chambered for powerful handgun cartridges. The reliability of any good revolver is unquestioned. Thus, my choice for protection in the field would be a magnum revolver with a 5.5" to 7.5" barrel. This barrel length is necessary to achieve the requisite ballistic performance from magnum cartridges. A revolver with a short barrel may be handy to carry, but a short barrel simply does not allow a magnum cartridge to reach its full potential. The three widely distributed magnum handgun cartridges are the .357 Magnum, .41 Magnum, and .44 Magnum. Another possibility is the even more powerful .454 Casull, which has increased in availability in recent years.

Bullet selection for any of these should tend toward the heavy bullets for the caliber, to maximize sectional density and thus penetration. Jacketed Soft Point (JSP) or hard cast bullets are the usual choice. Federal, for example, advertises their CastCore (hard cast lead) bullets as, "excellent for back-country self-protection."

At very close range a full power .357 Magnum loaded with 158 grain (SD .177) to 180 grain (SD .202) bullets will probably suffice, since the target is the animal's central nervous system. Even one of the great bears can be stopped at close range if the shooter can deliver a .357 bullet to the brain. The biggest advantage of the .357 is that most shooters can shoot it more accurately than the bigger magnums. The brain or spinal cord of even a large bear (the biggest of the big predators) is still a very small mark, requiring precise shot placement.
Standard 158 grain .357 Magnum JSP factory loads such as the

Remington Express call for a MV of 1235 fps and ME of 535 ft. lbs. More powerful 180 grain factory loads such as the Federal CastCore advertise a MV of 1250 fps and ME of 625 ft. lbs.

Better against large predators would be a .41 Magnum revolver using a 210 grain bullet (SD .178) in full power loads. The .41 is considerably more powerful than the .357, actually treading on the heels of the .44 Magnum. Of course, it also kicks almost as hard as a .44, and is almost as hard to control. But, for those who can master it, the .41 Magnum is a better choice than the .357 Magnum. The Remington 210 grain JSP Express factory load has a catalog MV of 1300 fps and ME of 788 ft. lbs.

The best choice, for the relatively few shooters who can actually shoot it with the required level of precision, is probably a full power .44 Magnum shooting a 240 grain (SD .185) to 300 grain (SD .232) bullet. The big .44 has proven that it can make an impression on even the largest predators. The Remington 240 grain JSP Express factory load drives its bullet at a MV of 1180 fps and ME of 721 ft. lbs. Even fiercer (at both ends) is the Federal 300 grain CastCore load, with a MV of 1250 fps and ME of 1040 ft. lbs.

The even more powerful .454 Casull has become popular with handgun hunters, but .454 revolvers are very large, even compared to standard .44 Magnum revolvers like the Ruger Super Blackhawk and S&W Model 629. The Freedom Arms Model 83 .454 is 14" long and weighs 50 ounces with a 7.5" barrel. The Winchester 300 grain JFP .454 Casull factory load claims a MV of 1625 fps and ME of 1759 ft. lbs. The SD of that bullet is .210.

The problem here is that very few outdoorsmen who are not dedicated handgun hunters are willing to carry an outsize .454 handgun. Similarly, very few shooters can control the recoil and muzzle blast of a .454. But for that tiny minority who don't mind the size, weight, muzzle blast, and recoil, the .454 is an excellent choice for protection against large predators.

In the same general class are the .480 Ruger and .500 S&W. Revolvers for these cartridges are often so large that in many cases one might as well carry (and would certainly be better served by) an ultra-lightweight rifle. The same could be said for the huge (and seldom seen) autoloading pistols such as the Desert Eagle and Widely, which can be had in calibers up to .50 AE. With 6" barrels the Widley weighs approximately 65 ounces and the Desert Eagle weighs 70.5 ounces!

Because I have received so many e-mails asking the question, I will go where wise men fear to tread and mention a couple of specific handguns. If I were buying a new gun for protection against large predators, I would get a Ruger Blackhawk revolver (6.5" barrel) in .357 or .41 Magnum, or a Ruger Super Blackhawk revolver (5.5" or 7.5" barrel) in .44 Magnum. The Blackhawk is 12.5" long and weighs 42 ounces; the Super Blackhawk is 11 3/8" long and weighs 46 ounces with a 5.5" barrel.

These are large pistols, but very durable and more compact and easier to shoot than most DA revolvers in these calibers. They come with excellent adjustable sights, are highly accurate, and are made right here in the U.S.A. They are also reasonably priced, an important consideration for folks who are not handgun hunters. Carried in a high cross-draw position on a wide gun belt, these guns are not too uncomfortable to tote in the field. Goodness knows, I have carried them a lot of miles in just that fashion.

Remember that bullet placement is absolutely crucial, so whatever handgun you choose for protection in the field, make sure that you can shoot it with great precision. You can't miss (or even score peripheral hits) fast enough to come out on top in a deadly encounter with a large predator!

[JP]

My opinion? If you can't legally hunt an animal with a certain pistol, then, really, how can you expect to stop it in a situation that is much more severe than hunting?

That's just it. He's carrying for protection, protection from anything else he may need to be protected from. (And it was in the family, not a new purchase.) Not just bears. Up close and personal, that .45 will and can save his life if attacked by a bear. Placement with any round is paramount. It will kill a bear, no doubt. I'm not saying a bear is something he is going to have to defend himself from, but he's also not hunting bear. Just a piece of mind while strolling through the woods.

As far as hunting them, you step it up a notch, like the .454 Casul, .444 Marlin, S&W's 500 & 460 models...big bore hand guns. Something you're really not packing for self-defense.

Outside of the 4506, it's a large gun to carry. There's far more .45's that are more compact in size and weight, which have the same end result.

[Brian in SLC]

That's just it. He's carrying for protection, protection from anything else he may need to be protected from. (And it was in the family, not a new purchase.) Not just bears. Up close and personal, that .45 will and can save his life if attacked by a bear. Placement with any round is paramount. It will kill a bear, no doubt.

My bet is it won't kill a bear in time to save his or his families life if the bear is motivated to kill them.

And, there's a fair number of stories out there to back that up.

Shot placement? Most likely, a black bear attack will be at night. As in, what shot placement? Will be very close range, and, unless you have beau coup penetration, chances are you'll wound the critter, and, it'll finish what it started.

A .45 ACP just doesn't have "up close and personal" muzzle energy out the chute. It just won't stop a motivated black bear. Better than a firecracker? Sure. I guess to a point. Unless a wounded bear is worse than a really scared one.

I just really think folks are kiddin' themselves with using something to actually stop a bear attack that you wouldn't think about hunting with.

Might be piece of mind, but, it'll be a false sense of security. Which, really, given that bear attacks in Utah are reasonably rare anyhow (and sometimes reppelled with a frying pan!), probably be ok.

My bet is that there isn't one instance wear a bear attack was stopped, with the animal incapacitated or dead, with a .45 ACP. Got one? Lets hear it.

I've been very close to a charging bear stopped with a shot gun by shooting it over its head, but, that's different than actually having to kill a bear that was motivated.

As an aside, how 'bout them Norwegian fellers who skied solo to the North Pole a few years back (first unsupported to that pole, I seem to recall). They both were packin' .44 magnums, 4" Smiths. They got stalked by a polar bear over the course of a few days, off and on. Finally, the thing jumps them, and, they manage to put it down. Since they were on an unsupported trip, they felt it would be cheating to eat on it whilst enroute to the North Pole. They only dined on it on the return trip. Tough nuts them Norskies! "Ya, we felt bad about the bear". Too funny.

Cheers.

-Brian in SLC