Aluminum rap rings-Pointless?

[Jaxx]

I wasn't getting enough drama on the guided rap thread so I thought I could start a good argument on this thread. I don't think it will reach the "bolt wars" magnificence but its worth a try.

Why do people use aluminum rappel rings. I am fairly new at canyoneering so I claim ignorance on this. I have read that once you pull a rope on the aluminum rings you shouldn't use them anymore because of the wear on the ring making it weaker. To me it seems like the person putting on the ring is not being considerate toward the canyoneers to follow because they will either have to cut the webbing and make a whole new setup, or add a quicklink and leave a bigger "mess".

Am I the only one who thinks this? Is there a good reason for the aluminum rappel ring other than the small amount of weight you save by carrying them instead of quick links.

[shaggy125]

They are lighter, and I would guess that is the main reason some people use them. Some of them are hollow and wear down when you pull the rope making them lose strength, over time the hollow middle becomes exposed and then they really start to lose strength. Omega Pacific however makes solid aluminum rap rings, much stronger and won't wear down to a hollow middle. Some hate them, others like them. I have some of the omega pacifics and regular steel quick links. I wouldn't ever use the hollow rings. A lot of people use different gear depending on the canyon they are doing. Replacing webbing and rap rings in Pine Creek? 1 inch webbing with beefy quicklinks. Doing an unbetad new canyon you don't plan on giving out beta for anytime soon? Good to save weight where you can, use smaller webbing and lighter rap rings. Others will chime in with more "expert" opinions than mine.

Eric.

[Jaxx]

I didn't realize some were solid. I guess an add on question would be what point to not trust a rap ring. When the hollow middle shows?

[skianddive]

I think Shaggy just about summed the differences between the hollow vs. Omega Pacific forged rings, with one exception. Being aluminum, they will not rust like the hardware store rapides, so they would certainly be more appropriate for wet canyons. But they will wear just like your aluminum descenders when the rope is pulled - with the Utah sandstone being more abrasive than our granite. Just ask my Pirana.


Forged aluminum rap ring for bail-outs and rap stations. Anodized gray for minimal visual impact. Solid construction (not hollow) for 20kN minimum breaking strength (over 4400lbs)! Not intended for repeated lowering.

This device is NOT designed to be used as a rappel or belay device (e.g. ATC, SBGII, Figure-8 or any other friction device). It is intended solely as a hardware alternative to bail-out slings, webbing and cord.

Weight: 34 grams

[Scott Card]

Did you notice all the rap rings in the photos in the Maidenwater thread? A lot still out there. I look at the wear and tear. If they are about a third worn through or if they are hollow, I replace. I don't know if that is good bad or otherwise. Calling the engineers... but that is my rule of thumb. I don't care for the hollow ones.

[skianddive]

Since I've never come across one that has worn through, this is Tom's advice from his website, http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/utah/intro/slings.php. He probably wrote it before Omega pacific released their forged ones.

How about those aluminium rappel rings climbers use?
They suck. Okay, they are nice and light, and in low usage, dry canyons, they CAN work okay. But they start out pretty weak, and cut easily when wet, sandy ropes are pulled across them. When you find them in canyons, look them over carefully. Aluminum rappel rings are hollow, and if the groove cuts through to the hollow, remove it and replace with a "real" rapide.

[Scott Card]

And by the way Jaxx, thanks for asking questions. I am no expert but I like to hear the responses to your questions. I have learned some new stuff recently, and perhaps more importantly, the stuff stays fresh in my mind as I sit here and try to solve client's problems, far away from the canyons.

[Jaxx]

Thanks for the quick responses.

Scott-I have alot more where that came from! I know what you mean though about the keeping it fresh in your mind. I was trying to tie a simple knot the other day and I just couldn't remember how. Luckily my brain fart dissipated and I tied it.

[Iceaxe]

Honestly I have not bought any gear other then ropes and backpacks for the past 5 or 6 years..... In regards to rap rings, rapids and webbing I collect it faster then I can use it.... I'm always cleaning up a rats nest created by others, this usually means about 20' or 30' of webbing per canyon and two or three rap rings or rapids of various types.....

When I come to the next rappel anchor I have to fix I usually use what's hanging on my harness or what is already there. If it's a popular route or one I plan to beta I give some thought to rigging it for those who will follow.... but I've also never considered it my duty to rig a bomber anchor for the next two hundred canyoneers.... people need to be responsible for themselves.... and I have been known to rappel off little more then trash.... not saying that's for everyone, but I've never had an anchor fail.

This thread should now also allow us to argue over using used gear, rappeling off trash and if you are responsible for those who follow....

[Scott P]

Is there a good reason for the aluminum rappel ring other than the small amount of weight you save by carrying them instead of quick links.

In my opinion the key words in using the aluminum rap rings is "low use". Fairly recently I did a canyon where I placed some rings four years eariler. They were still in good condition and it appeared that no one or very few people had used them since then so they were in good condition.

Anyway, going back to the "good reason" question, I know some hate them, but I sometimes like them for the weight difference and because ropes are easy to pull. I also like the solid rap rings too.

As far as "small amount of weight you save", that's true with one or two, but when doing a beta-less canyon we've often taken 20 or more rings. That's a huge difference in weight.

I also find the ropes easier to pull from the rings vs. similar sized rapid links.

[ratagonia]

In my opinion the key words in using the aluminum rap rings is "low use". Fairly recently I did a canyon where I placed some rings four years eariler. They were still in good condition and it appeared that no one or very few people had used them since then so they were in good condition.

If the rope is dry and clean, it will not cut the ring when you pull it. So standard SMC rappel rings work fine in many places. Just not in Pine Creek (for instance).

The OP ones are a big step up, but they ARE aluminum and if the rope is wet and sandy, they will cut pretty fast. Viva Steel!

Welded round steel rings are fine. In Utah, I think the air is dry enough that (except in the dankest of places) regular steel does not rust appreciably.

Tom

[Scott P]

If the rope is dry and clean, it will not cut the ring when you pull it. So standard SMC rappel rings work fine in many places. Just not in Pine Creek (for instance).

The canyon I speak of was the Middle Fork of Little Gem in the Swell:

http://www.summitpost.org/canyon/152...ddle-fork.html

It's usually a pretty dry canyon and since it sees very little use, the rings do seem to work fine in there. I definately agree that they wouldn't be good for something like Pine Creek.

[Brian in SLC]

Welded round steel rings are fine. In Utah, I think the air is dry enough that (except in the dankest of places) regular steel does not rust appreciably.

Both the Fixe and Faders stainless rings are available locally. Both bomber, and, they don't rust. I buy them by the bucket load. Leave them more than any other anchor, fo' sho'. They also don't seem to groove out near as fast as a rapide. And, very easy rope pull, but, still small enough that they block a rope knot (or biner) in a large diameter rope (ala 8.9mm dynamic climbing rope).

In a high traffic canyon, its nice to consider other folks. For exploration, a pile of those SMC rap rings weigh so much less than a single 3/8" rapide that it makes sense to carry them for some remote stuff, where weight is a concern and the probability of a ton of rapples is high.

I'm not as big a fan of the O-P aluminum fat rap rings. Still aluminum, and, will wear faster than the steel counterparts, with very little weight savings.

-Brian in SLC

[Scoobiedoo6559]

OK,
I am a rock and ice climber just getting back into climbing having been retired since the 90's. My question is this - concerning rap rings.

Back in to 80's & 90's - we were taught to skip using rap rings all together - as these were potential 'weak links' in the rap system, and simply rig a rap thru 2 new 1" tubular slings of our own. The theory was, webbing was cheaper than rap rings, 2 slings were redundant, easily replaced with new ones by parties that followed with slings of their own, and that rap rings were not to be trusted when used with 2 slings being - "Why create TWO 'links' in the rap 'chain' (rig) versus only ONE - and that was of just using webbing itself?

In other words - 2 lings + 2 rap rigs = 4 pcs of gear, and that 2 slings themselves = 2 pcs of gear left behind - less costly and 2 LESS potential areas of failure.

Thoughts?

I don't know that I'd want to use or trust using anyone else's rap rings that I found even if I put 2 of them on 2 brand new web slings of my own.

?????

[Scott P]

Back in to 80's & 90's - we were taught to skip using rap rings all
together

Who was it that taught this? (Just curious, not arguing). Every video, book, etc. I have from that time period (anywhere from Steve Allen's books to Turville's instructional canyoneering video) says to use them.

[DesertDuke]

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthre...th-old-anchors

[ratagonia]

Who was it that taught this? (Just curious, not arguing). Every video, book, etc. I have from that time period (anywhere from Steve Allen's books to Turville's instructional canyoneering video) says to use them.

Freedom of the Hills.

One reason i consider the "committee book" suspect on all issues.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

Freedom of the Hills.

One reason i consider the "committee book" suspect on all issues.

From the 8th edition, page 192: " Rappel Rings. To eliminate the risk of damage from friction both when setting the rappel and when retrieving the rope, attach the rope to the anchor sling(s) with a rappel ring."

[Brian in SLC]

Just for fun, from the 1960 first edition of Mountaineering the Freedom of the Hills:

Page 173, "To faclitate pulling down the rope it is advisable to thread the slings through a descending ring, through which the rappel rope is in turn threaded, gaining a much smoother running surface."

As well, page 174/175, with regard to stuck ropes, "Proper care in placement of slings and descending rings can reduce the frequency of such problems."

Pull cord, ala 1960!

[ratagonia]

From the 8th edition, page 192: " Rappel Rings. To eliminate the risk of damage from friction both when setting the rappel and when retrieving the rope, attach the rope to the anchor sling(s) with a rappel ring."

How's your page 194 look? My 7th has the same diagram 192; but on 194 they show the rope set up no ring. They are inconsistent, and say crazy things. "Don't trust welded rings" - you know, like those 10,000 lb fixe steel rappel rings - very dangerous!!!

Tom