Neon Keeper in its Worst Condition

[stefan]

fluctuating sand and water levels make neon's keeper quite variable in its difficulty. yikes.

for those who haven't read it, here is a story about what can happen with the keeper going alone during less difficult conditions:
Close Call in Canyon Country

[Iceaxe]

Gosh oldno7.... didn't mean to pull your chain.... I meant I have no doubt I could cross that pothole with enough time and equipment.... maybe my post was slightly confusing.....

And yes I've drilled out of a pothole where you could not touch bottom and it was really hard. you have to put a swimmer behind you and he has to continually power you against the rock or you just float away when you strike the drill with the hammer....

But mostly.... I'm just happy you guys are out safe.

[oldno7]

a couple further notes:

We had several plans in place before getting in the pothole, plans are a must but---cold water will cut those plans short.

I'm absolutely positive that there are people who can get out of this hole.
We may have been able to if time permitted. Somewhere in the planning stage, before entry, an exit strategy should be in place.

I hope the couple from Cal. got through and say -- man that was easy.
I seriously do.

finally- the internet is a great thing(I use it a lot) and speculation is only human nature,I understand that. I just think it is a little arrogant to say things without knowing what specifics were involved and--- maybe misleading to those with lesser skills. We were trained quite well,we practiced the techniques used to save our lives alot!! We did make rookie mistakes and luckily are here to benefit and learn from them.
I was very confident in our group and we have done many canyons together. We thought we were better than this also but the canyons have the final say. We have so much to learn!

[jwurst]

...Also, the pack with hooks probably wouldn't work because it is sandy for quite some distance from the exit.

Just a thought...
Modify a potshot by sewing a small pocket on the outside in which you can insert a hook with a wide base like a BD grappeling hook. leave a small hole at the bottom of the pocket so that you can stuff the hook's tether through and then use a piece of cord or webbing to secure it solidly to the rope end of the bag so that the hook stays snug in the pocket with the point facing out. Throw the bag into the sand/gravel past the pothole so that the hook is facing down into the ground. When you pull on the rope hopefully the weight of the bag will push the hook into the dirt as you drag the bag. Put maybe several hooks on several bags and add in rope friction over the lip and you might have a solid enough anchor to get out.

[Iceaxe]

I just think it is a little arrogant to say things without knowing what specifics were involved and---

I think you took some of the posts personally and they were never intended to be.... Everything I seen posted was "what if's" to Scott's request for thoughts on escaping a pothole. We look forward to hearing more about what you tried and why it didn't work. These situations are great learning tools.

Your group got out of the slot with everyone safe... how can you ask for a better result then that?

[cp0915]

For what it's worth, I didn't take Shane's (or anyone else's) comments as an attack on or judgment of Kurt and his group's handling of this situation. I simply took all this as a discussion of possible solutions to a problem.

On another note, I think this is a terrific thread. I'd like to see it evolve into a discussion of the various troublesome canyon obstacles and folks' experiences working through them...with pics!

[Alex]

I tend to agree with cp. Listening to people such as Scott, Shane, stefan, bruce and many other discussing advanced techniques, seems to only add more info to us noobs.

I would appreciate oldno7's follow up to the exit techniques they used, sounds like you guys were the last group who got out successfully.

On the other note, people who take Shane's and Tom's guides to heart and follow it blindly without any on site decision making will have to go through Natural Selection. Got to have a little bit of common sense to think on your own in these situation. I really appreciate everyone who posts beta online and share their own experiences. It gives us new canyoneers more info to crunch through before plunging into the unknown.

[trackrunner]

Well since my coment started this . . . I was just wondering if drilling was your last option if it would be difficult? Yes. Now I found out.

Glad Oldno7 and his group made it out. When I first read this thread I had a feeling the "experienced canyoneers" must have been his group. I look forward to his report and discussion.

Yes I'm the first to admit it sounds easy reading but in the real world things change.

Glad you guys had a plan of attack and retreat. I learned a lot from that. Fill us more if there is any more ifno.

Edit: I saw the pic and noticed the lip. That would be hard to climb, drill, toss, etc, out of.

[Alex]

This might sound very naive, but I am a noob so correct me if I am wrong.

Can this be used in extreme situations such as this keeper hole?

Ramset HD22 .22 Caliber Single Shot Tool

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/...10000003+90401



Basically to put a couple of nails in, then put a webbing on it and make a ladder to get out. Just a thought I had last night at 1 o'clock in the morning.

[Brian in SLC]

Can this be used in extreme situations such as this keeper hole? Ramset HD22 .22 Caliber Single Shot Tool

My bet is not. Especially something you could hang body weight from, especially. Plus, be an extra piece of gear that doesn't accomplish any other functions, so, would be dead weight. Not to mention risky.

Best bet is to have some gear that makes escape possible, no matter the conditions. That means carrying a drill and some hooks. With a bat hook, you don't need much of a drilled hole. Easier to drill if you have someone pushing on you, for sure. But, doable if you don't, just takes a bit more time.

And, you have to be saavy on how to climb efficiently with hooks, too. If you done any A4 or A5 (!) aid climbing, that would be a huge benefit.

If you don't have enough cold tolerance, or, the wet/dry suit to hang out long enough to make it work, then that's another problem too, as doing anything technical when you're freezing is very difficult.

Pack tosses can be effective. So can tossing a wad of rope (monkey fist or some such). Expecting a hook to dig into the sand probably won't work. There needs to be enough force to withstand someone's weight on the rope.

Happy hooker can be extremely effective. We've hooked out of pot holes by just using a grappling hook on the end of a happy hooker, and hooking on features that were well out of reach (like 15 feet up). Have a couple of alpine aiders makes a huge difference too, as, you have to be able to effectively weight the hook and then climb out, without blowing it.

Part of my "kit" for canyons when I'm not sure about water levels and for the possibility of keepers, is two bat hooks, two grappling hooks (BD design, great throw), a lightweight hammer (which also extends with a cleaning tool inside the handle with would be great for tossing out of a pothole), a drill and bolt kit, two alpine aiders, and a mess of slings and biners to match. Much prefer not to drill, but, sometimes its gets 'er done.

And, really, unless you're proficient in some of these techniques, you'll probably be spinning your wheels. Well seasoned rock climbers, those with a fair bit of aid climbing under their belt, seem to do prety well as they've had to figure out these types of things "under duress" in the vertical realm before and they usually have a system for ascending these types of problems fairly dialed in.

-Brian in SLC

[Scott Card]

the internet is a great thing(I use it a lot) and speculation is only human nature,I understand that. I just think it is a little arrogant to say things without knowing what specifics were involved and--- maybe misleading to those with lesser skills.

No arrogance on my part I assure you. I was neither being critical of you or your group or dis-ing you in any way. I saw this as an opportunity to discuss this particular pothole which is a doozy if half full. I also saw this as an opportunity to, in a round about way, spread the word again about this particular spot and the potential danger since Neon and the Cathedral are favorite places to go and an awesome place to rappel. You were wise to turn around and escape. I also thought this as an opportunity to again raise some techniques so as to get some folks thinking and experimenting in the back yard or canyon with some of this stuff. Honestly, much of my initial information and skill came from reading stuff like this on the internet and then going to the climbing store, buying some gear and then going to the back yard or on the roof and trying this stuff. You should have seen me hooking onto my roof with my homemade happy hooker and then testing it with full body weight. I had to patch a small hole after but I had a good time. Wonder what the neighbors thought?

Let me tell you my favorite tool in my arsenal. It is my friend Spiderman Steve. Amazing climber he is. When I come to a spot like this in Neon, I just usually say, "What do you think?" and then we talk and then I say, "Well Steve, get in and do your thing." He does his thing and then I go in and he pulls me out. It works really, really well. Now don't get me wrong, I think I could handle most potholes but why? I have Spidey along.

Thanks Brian for you list of gear. I think I will add a bit to my kit. And yes, I am confident that somewhere within 15 feet of the lip there is a feature that could be hooked by the happy hooker. Like I say, I will hopefully be there in the fall and I can goof around a bit with this particular pot hole.

[bruce from bryce]

That's one impressive list Brian. Hopefully you get to spread that around amongst your partners and if not I hope they are not carrying redudent equipment.

One thing I learned in my Canyon Rescue Course last week is that, while Tiblocs are a great emergency device that has multiple uses, the confidence I found in using Rope Man's was much greater so I've made the switch.

FOR SALE: Two (2) tiblocs

[Randi]

a couple further notes:

We had several plans in place before getting in the pothole, plans are a must but---cold water will cut those plans short.

Exactly what I heard from the So Cal group. Two of them went in, worked it, and got waaay too cold after a relatively short period of time. They're all experienced and innovative folks too. So they ended up jugging the rope and working up canyon to an exit. I just got off the phone with one of em.

I'm absolutely positive that there are people who can get out of this hole. We may have been able to if time permitted. Somewhere in the planning stage, before entry, an exit strategy should be in place.

I hope the couple from Cal. got through and say -- man that was easy.
I seriously do.

Nope. Wasn't easy or even possible under the circumstances and/or what they were prepared for. They had a lot of time to think about it on the way out, and back at camp, and one simple solution they came to would have been a blow-up raft of sorts. Might've given one em lift enough to get out (with aid from another). Perhaps? I remember once on Lake Powell, working for over an hour to deal with a pothole problem. All experienced and strong folks. Innovative and imaginative. Just a damn-hard-to-solve pothole problem. Our ultimate solution came in the form of a little extra lift for one person (using some of our bodies as rafts). Worked like a charm. Remember that one Tom? : )

finally- the internet is a great thing (I use it a lot) and speculation is only human nature, I understand that. I just think it is a little arrogant to say things without knowing what specifics were involved and--- maybe misleading to those with lesser skills. We were trained quite well,we practiced the techniques used to save our lives alot!! We did make rookie mistakes and luckily are here to benefit and learn from them.
I was very confident in our group and we have done many canyons together. We thought we were better than this also but the canyons have the final say. We have so much to learn!

It's all relative - the easy/difficult thing. There are folks who would determine that the easiest things you do would be extremely difficult for them. That's why these discussions are so valuable. Everyone just needs to take in all that info. and disseminate it with regards to their ability/experience. A pothole problem (just like a math problem) is gonna vary depending on the person dealing with it.

I'm happy you guys, and my So. Cal friends made it out OK. Live and learn, and learn to live next time too! It's easy to underestimate the difficulty of potholes until you start dealing with em up close and personal. I've sure had my problems with them. They scare the crap out of me sometimes.

[Brian in SLC]

That's one impressive list Brian. Hopefully you get to spread that around amongst your partners and if not I hope they are not carrying redudent equipment.

Hmmm. Its not really that much stuff. A petzl rokpecker with a 4" drill doesn't weight or take up that much space. Alpine aiders both fit on a single neutrino carabiner. Hammer is small and light. The hooks, drill, and a few misc. pins and bolts all fit in a very small ditty bag. A happy hooker takes us some space, but, can be so useful.

I always have my own slings, biners and mechanical ascender(s). So, the "extraction kit" weighs WAY less than a rope and takes up very little space in a pack. Not that I wouldn't use is as an excuse to not have to carry the rope...

Hate to have to deploy the heavy equipment, but, its worse style to get killed. Better style sometimes to just jug back up the rope and either bail, or, come back into the canyon downstream of the keeper.

If you know how to top step in an aider, then you can really minimize any damage too.

Very amazing what a talented climber can do. Always nice to have that in the emergency kit too. Ditto a dwarf toss. If its Stevie B, then you got both the dwarf and the climber in one, so, saves a bit of weight. Ha ha.

-Brian in SLC

[Scott Card]

the confidence I found in using Rope Man's was much greater so I've made the switch.

WHAT? WHERE? Ok Bruce, who makes the "Rope Man's". How big and heavy are these things. I can see another trip to the roof in my future to test this new equipment.

[Scott Card]

Exactly what I heard from the So Cal group. Two of them went in, worked it, and got waaay too cold after a relatively short period of time. They're all experienced and innovative folks too. So they ended up jugging the rope and working up canyon to an exit. I just got off the phone with one of em.

Great stuff Randi, Thanks. Hey, did the So. Cal group have a Happy Hooker? and try it?

Also, the body raft thing was one idea I was pondering for this hole. I wonder if three or four canyoneers could push against the walls of the pot hole and against eachother forming a sort of bridge perpendicular to the exit. Then have the smurf climb up and out? Again, this takes a group effort and two or three canyoneers would not work in this situation. Another reason I like groups. More bodies to stack.

[Iceaxe]

Sweet.... my Ninja Grappling hook comes to the rescue.

[Moose Droppings]

one simple solution they came to would have been a blow-up raft of sorts.

a while back when that bottomless pothole was turning most folks around, our party was debating the same thing as is being debated now in this forum, only we were at the edge of the keeper. while debating the various "standard" canyoneering solutions to pothole escaping, the party member bringing up the rear, who arived late to the discussion, pulled an inflatable raft from his pack. the pothole became a non-issue.

adding a pack raft to one's canyoneering rack might not be a bad idea when attempting canyons that contain keepers.

[Scott Card]

one simple solution they came to would have been a blow-up raft of sorts.

a while back when that bottomless pothole was turning most folks around, our party was debating the same thing as is being debated now in this forum, only we were at the edge of the keeper. while debating the various "standard" canyoneering solutions to pothole escaping, the party member bringing up the rear, who arived late to the discussion, pulled an inflatable raft from his pack. the pothole became a non-issue.

adding a pack raft to one's canyoneering rack might not be a bad idea when attempting canyons that contain keepers.

After I got done laughing my tail off, I would have gladly used the raft. That is awesome. No wonder that canyoneer was bringing up the rear. He was packing a raft!

[Iceaxe]

one simple solution they came to would have been a blow-up raft of sorts.

You can build a raft from your backpacks by filling everything that will hold air and stuffing the items inside the backpacks. Next you use biners and clip several packs together to create a large raft....

We once made a three pack raft to get over about a 2' lip..... the pack raft provided the needed boost to beach whale over the lip.... not sure how it would work with an 8' lip, other then maybe give you a work platform of sorts.....

Anyhoo.... good stuff being posted.