Neon Keeper in its Worst Condition

[jwurst]

Here is another thought on getting out of this particular pothole:
When I was there in April 2006 there was a big pile of wood in the constriction just above the pothole. If that pile were still there or if there was other wood available then find a 4 to 5 foot piece of it and tie a rope to both ends. Throw the log across and then pull on each end as needed to get the log in place, jammed across the outlet of the pothole. The outlet is maybe 3 1/2 to 4 feet wide but immedately opens out wider away from the pothole, making a nice place to jam anything that is long enough. From inside the pothole tie the two ropes together to form a V, as high up as you can reach. Then climb up onto the V like a kid standing in a swing at the park, where you will hopefully be high enough to climb out. If the ropes are tied very close to the end of the wood and the V is long then there will be minimal force on the middle of the log so it wouldn't have to be a huge tree to hold. You could pre-tie the ropes together before throwing but then it might be a little harder to get the log into place. I haven't heard of anybody doing this before but it seems viable. I know it wouldn't be common to have material available.

[Canyons12]

Here is another thought on getting out of this particular pothole:
When I was there in April 2006 there was a big pile of wood in the constriction just above the pothole. If that pile were still there or if there was other wood available then find a 4 to 5 foot piece of it and tie a rope to both ends. Throw the log across and then pull on each end as needed to get the log in place, jammed across the outlet of the pothole. The outlet is maybe 3 1/2 to 4 feet wide but immedately opens out wider away from the pothole, making a nice place to jam anything that is long enough. From inside the pothole tie the two ropes together to form a V, as high up as you can reach. Then climb up onto the V like a kid standing in a swing at the park, where you will hopefully be high enough to climb out. If the ropes are tied very close to the end of the wood and the V is long then there will be minimal force on the middle of the log so it wouldn't have to be a huge tree to hold. You could pre-tie the ropes together before throwing but then it might be a little harder to get the log into place. I haven't heard of anybody doing this before but it seems viable. I know it wouldn't be common to have material available.

that's pretty ingenious! you could add to the buoyancy of the log by securing packs and blown up drybags all across it's length.

[jwurst]

I wasn't thinking of floating the log. I was thinking of throwing it out like a potshot but then relying on its rigidness rather than its weight to serve as the anchor.

Now I want to know what you're thinking in terms of using a floating log.

[Canyons12]

so you're thinking of throwing it out of the pothole, onto the lip of the exit side of the pothole? that sounds like quite a feat. that log would have to be pretty heavy.

the floating log theory goes like this:

two short lengths of rope tied to either end of the log, tied in the middle (or one single length of rope, tied at either ends of the log - either way works). the rope is longer than the log itself by a foot or so. once the log is afloat, that length of rope acts as a sort of "stirrup" that you put your foot/feet into in order to give you enough of a boost to get up and over the exit lip of the pothole. this is assuming that the water level is just under the lip of the pothole. it wouldn't work too well if the water level were several feet lower than the lip of the pothole. it is also assuming that the buoyant force of the log is greater than the gravitational force of the earth acting on your mass. if not, you can always add more bouyancy to the log by attaching floating devices to it.

[jwurst]

so you're thinking of throwing it out of the pothole, onto the lip of the exit side of the pothole? that sounds like quite a feat. that log would have to be pretty heavy.

On this pothole it is maybe 10 feet down and 20 feet across to the lip of the exit, shorter if you walk across the ledge to the right. Unless the log is rotten I think a couple inches in diameter is all you'd need. Supposing such wood was available it wouldn't be a hard toss at all. Unfortunately the same flood that washed the sand out of the pothole probably washed away the wood.

[UtahAdventureGuide]

Sorry I'm late to the party, I hope it's not over yet.

I love reading these posts because I'm always looking for new ideas to escape dangerous keepers.

One idea that I've been thinking about but haven't had the time to work on is to use a modified Drybag or large MSR Dromedary bag with a rope and vinyl hose attached and a small hand water pump or water filter with the filter removed.

The idea is that you would toss the bag as far as you can or as far as your hose would allow and use the pump to fill the bags with water from the keeper.

1 gallon of water weighs about 8.34 lbs. so a 10 liter dromedary bag would weight apx. 22.06 lbs. when filled with water. Drybags can over 100 liters so when filled with water can weigh apx. 220 lbs. when filled with water.

With the right hand pump you could fill 100 liters in only a few minutes and it can be done while floating in the keeper or with enough hose you could fill the bag before entering the keeper. It would also help to keep you warm and busy if you were stuck in the keeper.

I would really appreciate any comments about this idea.

Thanks.
Chris

p.s. patent pending

[Iceaxe]

I know of at least one highly talented team that now has this keeper in their gunsights.... probably a few other teams.... I'm betting someone knocks it off in the next couple of weeks and provides us with some answers.....

....either that or it rains again....

[Scott Card]

Sorry I'm late to the party, I hope it's not over yet.

I love reading these posts because I'm always looking for new ideas to escape dangerous keepers.

One idea that I've been thinking about but haven't had the time to work on is to use a modified Drybag or large MSR Dromedary bag with a rope and vinyl hose attached and a small hand water pump or water filter with the filter removed.

The idea is that you would toss the bag as far as you can or as far as your hose would allow and use the pump to fill the bags with water from the keeper.

1 gallon of water weighs about 8.34 lbs. so a 10 liter dromedary bag would weight apx. 22.06 lbs. when filled with water. Drybags can over 100 liters so when filled with water can weigh apx. 220 lbs. when filled with water.

With the right hand pump you could fill 100 liters in only a few minutes and it can be done while floating in the keeper or with enough hose you could fill the bag before entering the keeper. It would also help to keep you warm and busy if you were stuck in the keeper.

I would really appreciate any comments about this idea.

Thanks.
Chris

p.s. patent pending

I think that would be a lot of work when several potshots or packs would do the same thing. Also, one bad seal or leak would screw up the whole idea. I guess you could pump that hole to the point you were standing and then do the body stacking technique. I don't know, seems like a lot of gear and too much room for error. One of those "I'd have to see it" work to believe it techniques.

[Scott Card]

I know of at least one highly talented team that now has this keeper in their gunsights.... probably a few other teams.... I'm betting someone knocks it off in the next couple of weeks and provides us with some answers.....

....either that or it rains again....

I wish I had the time. I would love to give it a go.

[trackrunner]

Read a trip report over at yahoo groups, someone has concured it.

They took a 22 foot teliscoping pole attached an aider. Also pushed a log in there that can be used as a raft.

More ideas over at yahoo.

[Iceaxe]

From Doc Rosen....

Neon Keeper descended 3 May 08

On 3 May 2008 Jacen Wray, Randy Willis, Justin Peterson, and I went down to Neon. There is a sign at the register that says it is very dangerous and don't do it. We had lots of time to think about things and had been warned in advance so I would say that we had a few advantages over the previous groups. It was a nice day to do Neon. Not too cold not too warm about a 4 mph breeze. I'd give you the whole trip report but I know that you are only interested in the pot hole. I had done the canyon a couple of years ago and didn't remember the pothole at all. I did see pictures that were posted on the web. Often the pothole sections are deep, dark, and cold. I was pleasantly surprised that this pothole was in a real happy section. We had spent some time exploring higher in the canyon and reached it with nice warm sunlight and then it opens up below to a big open area with trees and plenty of sun. It is a great location to practice pothole escapes.

The first thing I noticed was the log above that people had used as an anchor. There were other anchors available so we moved that log into the pothole. Next we assembled the Rosen pothole escape device. A ridiculous device made of aluminum tubing in 2 foot sections overlapped 5 inches and held together with screws. It was 22 feet long and I attached an aider at the top and another at the about where that ended. Jacen and I rapped into the pool, Justin lowered the device to me and I swam over and stabilized it and Jacen climbed out. Jacen was in the water about 30 seconds. This device only needed to be about half as long as it was and leaving half of it at home would have been a lot easier on my back and shoulders. I had made it up years ago when Tom Jones asked Chris Raver and I to lead the Squeeze on a canyon fest. I had never been through the Squeeze but read about the potholes and so I made it up. We didn't use it in the Squeeze, it was a pain to carry, and I've never carried it in a canyon until now.

Now that we had established that we could exit any time, Jacen jumped back in and we used the log. He sat on the big end of the log and I stabilized it and with that flotation Jacen climbed out again.

Randy Willis jumped in and he found that he could touch the bottom and have his nose above the water. Jacen jumped in again I pushed and Jacen climbed out. I will note that Jacen is small, in good shape, and an excellent climbing and canyoneer. As I stood there pushing Jacen out the soft sand or mud at the bottom gives way and my head went underwater. One can only continue to push for about 5 seconds in such a situation so the climber has to go fast. You may think that you can hold your breath for a minute but the water is cold, you are tired from doing the canyon, your wearing a wet suit, you've been treading water, and your pushing as hard as you can. For me that comes down to one good 5 second push. The climber has to be quick and Jacen surely was.

We figured if one person could push then it ought to be easier with two people so Jacen came back in the pool and Randy and I pushed him out. It was much easier with two pushers.

We did it four different ways. We took turns climbing out. Other ways we thought of were to take a boat like Dave Roberts in his article in Outside Magazine about 1996. A pair of stilts like the ones dry wallers use could come in handy.

Things we learned.

1. The water level changes daily due to evaporation, seepage or new water. Be prepared for different conditions. the water was probably lower for us than for those who tried earlier. That made some things easier and others harder.

2. On the afternoon of 3 May 08 from the top of the water to the rock that the pole came to rest on was approximately 77 inches.

3. There was about 12 inches of soft sand or mud on top of the rock

4. From water to the lip was approximately 19 inches

5. One ought to establish a way into the pothole with the rope and away out. Best to have a separate line with an aider or two attached so that one can climb out of the pothole the same way you went in easily. It is hard to tread water and set up a tibloc. I've done it. I know. It is a lot easier to climb up the aider and then set up you ascending system.

6. We learned from those who went before. We would not have been nearly as prepared if we hadn't been forewarned.

Things we did to improve it for those who follow before water changes everything again.

1. we pushed a lot of dirt and rocks in so that there may be something to stand on. That dirt could have already settled to lower in the pool.

2. We pulled the log out and wedged it below the pool so that you could use it for a pack toss or with a happy hooker. That log may not be there when you do the canyon. You have been warned. I was going to tie some webbing for it for those who followed but the group decided that the next group needs to do some problem solving so they will have to figure out how to use the log.

I love potholes and thrive on this aspect of canyoneering. You may not. Please do not assume because our team did it on 3 May 08 that the conditions will be the same for you. We had good people, lots of experience and a couple weeks to game plan. Jacen was the most important member of our team. You need some larger people for muscle and smaller ones to be pushed. Things change. Be prepared. Know your limits and don't blame me if you misjudge.

I had a great team and it was a pleasure to work with them.

Mark

[Scott Card]

I may be there next week. If so, my plan is to make the traditional attempts using the "normal" stuff in a canyoneers pack with the possible exception of the home made "Happy Hooker" which should be a normal piece of equipment IMHO in a pot hole canyon of unknown condition. I plan on throwing the skilled guy in and watching.

[UtahAdventureGuide]

I wouldn't mind doing Neon this season if anybody has room in their group.

[neumannbruce]

5/10/08

My partner and I were able to find a log wedged above a small drop right above the keeper. With this log currently floating in the keeper you can climb out of it with one person stabilizing the log & the other climbing.

Or if you have 2 potshots you can toss them over the large log the other party left behind and pull yourself out. A pack toss would work too, but it seems easier to toss potshots farther.

Remember conditions change - go prepared to reverse if necessary - those logs might not be there tomorrow.

[Iceaxe]

Neon Update: July 5 2008
From a note sent to me by a friend....

It [Neon] was mostly dry with about 4 or 5 pools we waded through - the deepest was just above my waste. The first keeper was almost dry but we bypassed it with the fixed 8mm rope just past it. After we bypassed it we realized that with a boost from a second person we could have defeated it quite easily. The second keeper, with the water level low enough that you don't have to swim to keep your head above water, is easily defeated with two people.

.