Neon Keeper in its Worst Condition

[bruce from bryce]

A report from the Escalante backcountry ranger:

Pass this along...
----- Forwarded by Brent McGinn/GLCA/NPS on 04/22/2008 07:56 AM -----
Jeff Kracht/GLCA/NPS
04/22/2008 08:35 AM MDT
To
Steve Luckesen/GLCA/NPS@NPS, Brent McGinn/GLCA/NPS@NPS, Dave Goodin/GLCA/NPS@NPS
cc

Subject
Fw: Neon Canyon: keeper pothole above the Golden Cathedral is a trap





To me this is just part of canyoneering.
Do we need to address this?

JEFFRO

----- Forwarded by Jeff Kracht/GLCA/NPS on 04/22/2008 08:33 AM -----
Bob Stevenson@BLM
04/21/2008 05:59 PM MDT
To: Bowdie Pollock/CCDO/UT/BLM/DOI@BLM, Larry Glickman/CCDO/UT/BLM/DOI@BLM, Shannon Holt/CCDO/UT/BLM/DOI@BLM, David Mecham/CCDO/UT/BLM/DOI@BLM, Jeanie Linn/CCDO/UT/BLM/DOI@BLM, Scott Brodie/CCDO/UT/BLM/DOI@BLM, Torrian Nelson/CCDO/UT/BLM/DOI@BLM, Steve Henry/CCDO/UT/BLM/DOI@BLM, August Bernardo/R4/USDAFS@FSNOTES, Jeffrey Lauersdorf/CCDO/UT/BLM/DOI@BLM, Jeff Kracht/GLCA/NPS@NPS
cc: Raymond Lee/CCDO/UT/BLM/DOI@BLM
Subject: Neon Canyon: keeper pothole above the Golden Cathedral is a trap

The keeper pothole above the Golden Cathedral is a true keeper... and a trap. I spoke with 3 experienced canyoneers who reported these conditions. The low water level in the pothole means it is nearly impossible to exit the undercut lip of the pothole on the downstream side. They tried numerous pothole exit techniques, but none worked. Fortunately, they left their rappell rope in place and were able to ascend their rope and retreat up-canyon. If not for that, they would still be in that pothole... I wrote a note and drew a diagram inside the trailhead register to advise others of these conditions. (I also drew another diagram for the front desk.)

Strongly discourage anyone from attempting upper Neon Canyon at this time - conditions are dangerous!

There is currently one party of 3 canyoneers attempting Neon today, Monday 4/21 and Choprock on Tues 4/22. This party is due out on 4/23 according to the permit they wrote at the Egypt trailhead, where their gray crew cab pickup truck, (CA 8K16429) is parked. I have a copy of the permit at my desk, and the original is in the permit box under the front desk.

The hike into the Golden Cathedral from below is not affected by these conditions.

I could not find Dixie in FS Notes, could someone at the front desk pass this on to her please?

Thanks,

Bob Stevenson
Backcountry Ranger
Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument
755 West Main, PO Box 225
Escalante UT 84726
(435) 826-5603

Does anyone know who went into the canyon yesterday?

bruce from bryce

[tanya]

Scary! Thanks for posting that Bruce!

[trackrunner]

Kurt "Oldno7" went there this weekend. Suppose to be back today. Neon was on the scheduale.

[Iceaxe]

Thanks Bruce.

[Jaxx]

Kurt "Oldno7" went there this weekend. Suppose to be back today. Neon was on the scheduale.

I wonder if he is one of the groups that got turned around.

[Scott Card]

Thanks Bruce.

Ditto. Thanks. That is one bad keeper that slopes up and back into the pothole so a bag toss is probably useless and there is nothing for the bag to snag on at the exit (at least when I was there). It's a nice sandy exit sloping the wrong direction with not too many features to grab on to. Hate to say it and I am sure to take some flak but this may be a pick and hook type hole if I ever saw one. And it would not be easy since you would have to pick to the side not directly up the exit spot. Helmet on. I would like to see some advice on this pot hole from the gurus.

[Iceaxe]

Someone could just toss a big log into it from the rim (ala the pic below) as they hike to the drop in....

Just a thought.... there is usually more then one way to skin a cat....

[Stick]

I would like to see some advice on this pot hole from the gurus.

I am far from being a guru, but here is my experience with it last year. There were four of us, and the pothole was about 7 feet deep. We were able to push 2 people out. We passed them the rope and they set up an meat anchor, the second person backing up the first. They got right next to the wall on the left LDC to maximize friction. We tied a loop in the rope for our first step for the next 2 people, and we were able to climb up the rope/be pulled up out of the pothole.

I'm glad there were four of us for this and not three.

I can't imagine a pack toss working unless you bring a lot of packs or potshots to toss, and there didn't seem to be any good natural features to place a hook. If anyone has any other methods beside pushing and pulling eachother out of it I would be curious to hear how they did it.

I wonder how deep it is this year. If it was much deeper I think it would have given us more problems.

[Scott Card]

Someone could just toss a big log into it from the rim (ala the pic below) as they hike to the drop in....

Just a thought.... there is usually more then one way to skin a cat....

Agreed that there is more than one way to skin that cat. But the year we went in the water was about a foot below the lip. We beached whaled our way out and then checked the depth since I was . We couldn't touch bottom and after jumping in and going under a bit we figured it was more than 10 feet deep water at the point of exit. So throw a BIG log in. That photo shows the nasty lip nicely. Now just picture about a 20 degree (?) sandy slope back into the hole as you try to exit. It's potentially a nasty one alright.

[Scott Card]

I am far from being a guru, but here is my experience with it last year. There were four of us, and the pothole was about 7 feet deep.

That is the problem with this particular hole and I guess every other hole for that matter. The depth is seasonal and changes with every storm. When we went in we were doing cannon balls off the little rap and then after exiting doing the same back into the hole. Some guys never touched. Finally one went in straight and swam down and finally touched. It was deep when I was there. Gratefully the water was only a foot from the top of the lip.

After looking at that photo again, it seems to me that the hooking would have to be g-picked (the horror) and go vertical to one side or the other and then horizontal for a hole or two. Again, nasty.

[Iceaxe]

perhaps something I experimented with about 10 years ago.....

Take a softball and drill a hole through the center. Tie a small rope (6mm to 8mm) through the hole..... then toss the softball down canyon as far as possible. You can chuck a softball a long ways (unless you throw like a girl ). The softball also bounces nicely off the walls and continues down canyon.... the softball gets snagged and you have your anchor.... this worked well the couple of times I tried it....

...also... I've just tied about 4 hooks into a rats nest and tossed it down canyon. Same idea as above and anyone doing Neon should at least be packing a couple of hooks..... Just have to get the rats nest of hooks to snag something.....

Or maybe something I saw in Dave Blacks new book called an octopus.....

It's similar to the rats nest of hooks but perhaps more refined.... It's basically a pack toss with several hooks attached to the pack with runners.... the idea is to get one of the hooks to catch something... and combined with the pack you have enough friction to climb out.

I'm interested in other ideas.....

[Iceaxe]

After looking at that photo again, it seems to me that the hooking would have to be g-picked (the horror) and go vertical to one side or the other and then horizontal for a hole or two. Again, nasty.

Traditionally hooking was done by drilling a small round hole (not chopping giant craters with a G-Pick).... there is no reason to use a g-pick to hook if you know what you are doing.

The hole in the picture below is about 5 times larger then required. Traditionally about a 3/16 or 1/4" bit was used to drill the hooking holes.

Drilling and hooking is really old school.... Newer methods have yielded better results.

[Scott Card]

perhaps something I experimented with about 10 years ago.....

Take a softball and drill a hole through the center. Tie a small rope (6mm to 8mm) through the hole..... then toss the softball down canyon as far as possible. You can chuck a softball a long ways (unless you throw like a girl ). The softball also bounces nicely off the walls and continues down canyon.... the softball gets snagged and you have your anchor.... this worked well the couple of times I tried it....

...also... I've just tied about 4 hooks into a rats nest and tossed it down canyon. Same idea as above and anyone doing Neon should at least be packing a couple of hooks..... Just have to get the rats nest of hooks to snag something.....

Or maybe something I saw in Dave Blacks new book called an octopus.....

It's similar to the rats nest of hooks but perhaps more refined.... It's basically a pack toss with several hooks attached to the pack with runners.... the idea is to get one of the hooks to catch something... and combined with the pack you have enough friction to climb out.

I'm interested in other ideas.....

I tried the softball thing in the Squeeze. And no, I didn't throw like a girl. It didn't work because the walls were so polished and there was no feature, choke stone or log jam to catch on. I have often thought I might just take that thing back into Imlay or some such canyon with log jams. Also, the pack with hooks probably wouldn't work because it is sandy for quite some distance from the exit. The only trees/ boulders seemed to be around the corner towards the Cathedral. I even had my cheater stick (home made Happy Hooker) in Neon and honestly, there are not many, if any, features to hook onto at the exit. Perhaps this fall if plans happen and conditions are good/nasty I will try it again with a bunch of different techniques.

[Scott Card]

Traditionally hooking was done by drilling a small round hole (not chopping giant craters with a G-Pick).... there is no reason to use a g-pick to hook if you know what you are doing.

The hole in the picture below is about 5 times larger then required. Traditionally about a 3/16 or 1/4" bit was used to drill the hooking holes.

Drilling and hooking is really old school.... Newer methods have yielded better results.

Oops, my bad. I meant drill hole.

[Iceaxe]

I tried the softball thing in the Squeeze. And no, I didn't throw like a girl. It didn't work because the walls were so polished and there was no feature, choke stone or log jam to catch on.

Maybe tie a couple hooks to the softball.... you should still be able to toss it a long ways and the hooks might catch something....

....I'm just tossing out ideas....

[Scott Card]

I tried the softball thing in the Squeeze. And no, I didn't throw like a girl. It didn't work because the walls were so polished and there was no feature, choke stone or log jam to catch on.

Maybe tie a couple hooks to the softball.... you should still be able to toss it a long ways and the hooks might catch something....

....I'm just tossing out ideas....

Actually, I think the softball thing isn't a bad idea with the right conditions, ie. log jam or chock stone below the exit. The problem in the Squeeze and this particular hole in Neon is that there aren't many features if any for the thing to snag on with or without the hook. The nice thing about the softball thing is that it would swing back and forth over a log jam or chock stone increasing the chance of getting snagged. The bad thing about it is that it is light weight and wouldn't snag on smaller features like a pack toss with the hooks attached which would drag and tend to dig into the sand.

Heck, I am also just trying to think of natural ways to get out of these things also. Drilling and hooking is the least desirable way to exit on so many levels.

[bruce from bryce]

Question: you leave your rope but cannot get out of the pothole. You ascend back into the canyon and look for a place to climb out. I know there is that double pothole farther back up the canyon so can you get out before that and then bypass this entire section?

[trackrunner]

Heck, I am also just trying to think of natural ways to get out of these things also. Drilling and hooking is the least desirable way to exit on so many levels.

I'm learning escaping from potholes. Q: If you have tried every way to get out and it doesn't work, like these guys, would it then be alright to drill? Or never drill unless your life depends on it. Is this canyon too hard to drill?

[Iceaxe]

With enough time and equipment you can engineer you way through, over, or around any obstacle.

Heck..... if worse comes to worse you can always drill and install a bolt ladder, you could do it in short order and then spiderman right up the overhanging lip..... I have no doubt that I could cross that pothole..... but gosh, where do you draw the line. The trick for me is to do it as fast, safe and naturally as possible. I'm not interested in chopping, chipping and drilling....

[oldno7]

With enough time and equipment you can engineer you way through, over, or around any obstacle.

Heck..... if worse comes to worse you can always drill and install a bolt ladder, you could do it in short order and then spiderman right up the overhanging lip..... I have no doubt that I could cross that pothole..... but gosh, where do you draw the line. The trick for me is to do it as fast, safe and naturally as possible. I'm not interested in chopping, chipping and drilling....

You'd like to think so anyway,
Sounds easy non the internet!
You have no clue, the problem may be that some on here listen to you.

For those who are less talented than shane(myself included) heres some questions:
Can you ascend a rope while free hanging?
Can you get your ascenders over a lip while free hanging?
Can you set up haul systems up to 7:1?(maybe more)
Those are escape back up canyon questions, hoping you didn't pull your rope.
On the downstream side can you get your body up and over a 16" UNDERCUT lip?(the water is at least 8' deep at the exit side)
We tried partner assist and I'm sure I went under at least 8' and no bottom.
Me--I can't hold a drill and hammer over my head while floating on a pack, apparently shane can.
The top side of the downhill lip is probably a 30 deg. slope back into the water, completely covered with 2-3 inches of fine sand,this ramp is probably 30-40 feet long making a potshot useless, there is nothing to set your hooks into(perfectly smooth, featureless rock.)
I will post no more here about this.

I just thought those who may not have shanes manly abilities would like some "real" information.
And one last note--We had a guy go hypothermic which made retreat a necessity. Our next option was a pack raft and trying to launch off that but we had no time.