question from a noobie re: Robber's Roost Middle Fork

[heliodor]

Hello all,

I'm new to this forum but thankfully not to the wonders of the Canyon country. Historically I have sought out long, arduous technical backpacking loops involving a maximum of orienteering, but usually not a lot of slot work as large packs usually preclude it.

However, this year we've decided to change things up a bit and try to base camp somewhere (in this case the Robber's Roost main) and spend a few days thoroughly exploring and finally getting into some nice slots i.e. Notmindbender, Little White Roost and maybe Chambers. The main question I have is, does anyone know if the true Middle Fork (not the Mindbender forks) of Robber's Roost can be descended from the top, and if so, what sort of gear we would need. Right now, we're planning on hauling in enough gear to properly anchor the 90' rappel in Notmindbender as if it is clean.

Also, does anyone have an opinion on the likelihood of a Subaru Outback driving the road all the way down to the Hans Flat area? I would love to get into Spur Canyon.

Thanks for any info! BTW we should be descending N Fork Robber's Roost on April 20th.

Robert

[nat]

Hello all,


The main question I have is, does anyone know if the true Middle Fork (not the Mindbender forks) of Robber's Roost can be descended from the top, and if so, what sort of gear we would need.
Robert

The true Middle Fork can be descended from the top. Mike Kelsey has done it, and there is just one rap, pretty high up. I don't have my copy of his book here at work, but he may discuss it there. I have hiked up the Middle Fork until the bottom of that rap. That was a while ago, but I believe the rap is well under 100ft.

[Iceaxe]

Do you realize how big of area you are covering in one trip? High Spur to White Roost? That would be a three hour drive on dirt roads in a Subaru Outback. You might want to rethink your plan and do less driving and more canyons. I also would not consider some of your mentioned canyons to be the better Roost slots.... but that's just an opinion type thing....

MK does have the Middle Fork (as noted on the USGS map) in his tech book.

Anyhoo.... we took a Subaru Outback into the trailhead of Spur. It took some careful driving, conditions change, yada, yada....

[heliodor]

The true Middle Fork can be descended from the top. Mike Kelsey has done it, and there is just one rap, pretty high up. I don't have my copy of his book here at work, but he may discuss it there. I have hiked up the Middle Fork until the bottom of that rap. That was a while ago, but I believe the rap is well under 100ft.

Thanks Nat, I will check it out.

[heliodor]

Do you realize how big of area you are covering in one trip? High Spur to White Roost? That would be a three hour drive on dirt roads in a Subaru Outback. You might want to rethink your plan and do less driving and more canyons.

Yeah, I wasn't really planning on doing that all in one trip. I really just wondered if it was possible in that type of vehicle.

I also would not consider some of your mentioned canyons to be the better Roost slots.... but that's just an opinion type thing....

I would definitely be interested in your opinion on this.

Thanks

[denaliguide]

as long as the road is dry an outback will make it to hans flat with no problem. the side roads can be a different story. careful driving and a good spotter can get you out to some of the more remote spots. drive carefully and have some gear for when you get stuck. sounds like fun.

btw. i also like the long technical backpacks. the escalante has lots of these.

welcome to the forum.

[heliodor]

as long as the road is dry an outback will make it to hans flat with no problem. the side roads can be a different story. careful driving and a good spotter can get you out to some of the more remote spots. drive carefully and have some gear for when you get stuck. sounds like fun.

btw. i also like the long technical backpacks. the escalante has lots of these.

welcome to the forum.

Thanks. Interesting you should mention the Escalante. If I really had to choose a favorite backcountry experience, it would have to be a derivation of Steve Allen's Escalante South route I completed maybe six years ago. Anyway our group was treated to a ferocious thunderstorm on the top of the Fold, which then gave way to almost completely clear skies and a late evening lunar eclipse. A blood red moon hanging over the whole of southeast Utah from the top of the Waterpocket Fold.

Enchanted country.

[nat]

Thanks. Interesting you should mention the Escalante. If I really had to choose a favorite backcountry experience, it would have to be a derivation of Steve Allen's Escalante South route I completed maybe six years ago. Anyway our group was treated to a ferocious thunderstorm on the top of the Fold, which then gave way to almost completely clear skies and a late evening lunar eclipse. A blood red moon hanging over the whole of southeast Utah from the top of the Waterpocket Fold.

Enchanted country.

I did a version of that hike 10 or 11 years ago, in March. Incredible terrain and wonderfully complex route finding. We camped near the big potholes at the top of the fold mentioned in SA's book. Great spot with outrageous views. It's one of my favorite backpack trips; I don't think we saw anyone until the last day, hiking back down Coyote Gulch.

[heliodor]

I did a version of that hike 10 or 11 years ago, in March. Incredible terrain and wonderfully complex route finding. We camped near the big potholes at the top of the fold mentioned in SA's book. Great spot with outrageous views. It's one of my favorite backpack trips; I don't think we saw anyone until the last day, hiking back down Coyote Gulch.

I have to agree with you fully. We actually got lost for a number of hours on the descent off of the Fold, and some rather spirited debates erupted over how to interpret SA's route description. But what an exhilarating route it is.

[price1869]

Right now, we're planning on hauling in enough gear to properly anchor the 90' rappel in Notmindbender as if it is clean.



Robert

Please don't place any new bolts. PLEASE!!

[heliodor]

Please don't place any new bolts. PLEASE!!

Not to worry. We don't bolt, and our inclination would be to remove any we found. From some pictures I've seen it appears that quite a rat's nest of webbing and poorly placed bolts has developed. That's a damn shame. I have always felt it a responsibility as well as a challenge to find ways in and out of the canyons without defacing the rock.

[pfinjt]

our inclination would be to remove any we found.

I don't want to start an argument about bolts (I don't place them myself and don't like them in pristine areas) but I wouldn't remove any either. Lots of people use Kelsey's guidebook, which notes which rappels have bolt anchors. Folks showing up expecting to find bolts might get in trouble if you've chopped them.

I know, I know...anyone canyoneering should be prepared to rebuild all anchors, but in practice, that's not always the case. I for one wouldn't want to be responsible for removing a bolt that someone else might have been counting on, even though they shouldn't have done so.

[Iceaxe]

I also would not consider some of your mentioned canyons to be the better Roost slots.... but that's just an opinion type thing....

I would definitely be interested in your opinion on this.

I'm not sure I completely understand your plan.... you want to camp in one spot? or you want to backpack into the Roost and set up a basecamp?

Tell me where you want to camp and I'll try and toss out suggestions.

The canyons kind of bunch together....

Larry, Bluejohn, the Mindbenders, Alcatraz, No man's all group together nice.

White Roost, Buck, Pasture, Chambers, North Fork of RR all group together nice.

[heliodor]

I'm not sure I completely understand your plan.... you want to camp in one spot? or you want to backpack into the Roost and set up a basecamp?

Tell me where you want to camp and I'll try and toss out suggestions.

The canyons kind of bunch together....

Larry, Bluejohn, the Mindbenders, Alcatraz, No man's all group together nice.

White Roost, Buck, Pasture, Chambers, North Fork of RR all group together nice.

The plan is to descend the N Fork of Robber's Roost and try to establish a base camp somewhere in the middle portion of the canyon; essentially in the region where the Middle Forks and White Roost enter. From here we feel we could do some combination of Notmindbender, Mindbender, Middle Fork, and perhaps Little White Roost as single day loops originating and ending in the canyon, as opposed to up top per usual. Our plan is to take four days worth of food down with us, so whatever we can do in that time frame is cool, including just exploring a bit. Then we plan to exit via White Roost and at this point we still have 3 days or so to play around, hence my interest in Chambers. But we are a fairly relaxed bunch in the sense that we don't need hard and fast goals (we are not peakbaggers) so we would be happy just wandering around as well. But any suggestions you have would be much appreciated.

[heliodor]

I don't want to start an argument about bolts (I don't place them myself and don't like them in pristine areas) but I wouldn't remove any either. Lots of people use Kelsey's guidebook, which notes which rappels have bolt anchors. Folks showing up expecting to find bolts might get in trouble if you've chopped them.

I know, I know...anyone canyoneering should be prepared to rebuild all anchors, but in practice, that's not always the case. I for one wouldn't want to be responsible for removing a bolt that someone else might have been counting on, even though they shouldn't have done so.

That is a good point. I don't think we would actually remove one unless we felt it was unsafe, in which case we would replace it with something better.

[Iceaxe]

You are setting yourselves up for some long sand slogs.....

if that's what you really want to do....

I'd descend North Fork and base about where North Fork joins the Mindbenders.... Should have pumpable water near here (always at the final rap in the Mindbenders). You can do the Mindbenders over the next two days... and exit out White Roost....

That would put you back fairly close to your car and allow you to do both forks of White Roost (skip Little White or put it near the bottom of your list) and Chambers. Pasture and Buck are also close by....

Not sure why the desire to pack all that gear down to the bottom to camp but it's your party.

others might have better solutions....

[pfinjt]

Unless you specifically want to descend a canyon using technical equipment, I'd go in from the west side, cross the Dirty Devil River, and set up camp where the North Fork and the South Fork of Robber's Roost Canyons meet. Nice spot there for a camp and you could explore canyons for days.

I you are more intent on descending canyons using ropes and technical equipment, the above plan wouldn't work.

So is this primarily a backpacking trip with some canyon descents or a canyoneering trip with a backpack?

[heliodor]

Unless you specifically want to descend a canyon using technical equipment, I'd go in from the west side, cross the Dirty Devil River, and set up camp where the North Fork and the South Fork of Robber's Roost Canyons meet. Nice spot there for a camp and you could explore canyons for days.

I you are more intent on descending canyons using ropes and technical equipment, the above plan wouldn't work.

So is this primarily a backpacking trip with some canyon descents or a canyoneering trip with a backpack?

I would call it a backpacking trip with canyon descents. Traditionally we do long, 8-12 day backpacks, with the emphasis on exploration rather than hardcore canyoneering descents. Originally this trip was going to be a figure-eight type loop, starting at the head of the N. Fork, descending to the river, over and up N. Fork No Mans, over to and descend Notmindbender, exit via White Roost, and back to the car. But we quickly realized that descending the narrows in Notmindbender with full packs would probably be a real pain if not impossible. So, we altered the plan to the present so we can do some descents without the big packs.

[heliodor]

You are setting yourselves up for some long sand slogs.....

if that's what you really want to do....

I'd descend North Fork and base about where North Fork joins the Mindbenders.... Should have pumpable water near here (always at the final rap in the Mindbenders). You can do the Mindbenders over the next two days... and exit out White Roost....

That would put you back fairly close to your car and allow you to do both forks of White Roost (skip Little White or put it near the bottom of your list) and Chambers. Pasture and Buck are also close by....

Good advice, thanks. We'll try and stay near the confluence with the Mindbenders if possible.

Not sure why the desire to pack all that gear down to the bottom to camp but it's your party.

others might have better solutions....

Basically because our assumption is that camping in the canyon would be preferable to camping up top. This may be a poor assumption, but in our experience this has usually been the case. As for the desire to pack all that stuff down, I'm going to have a hard time logically explaining that so I won't even try. There is definitely a masochistic streak in our group that none of us can quite figure out, but long desert slogs have become almost ritualistic over the years.

[Iceaxe]

Gottcha.... I'm known as the guy who keeps things as simple and easy as possible....

Have fun....