North Wash Invitation

[AJ]

Hey all,

Since nobody has stepped up to the plate; I

[skianddive]

[quote=AJ]Here

[tanya]

[color=white]Put me on the to go list! --- looks very well organized!

I should be able to do the whole weekend.

Thursday 3/27 night --- and Canyoneering on Friday 3/28

[ratagonia]

I like heavy cotton clothing for this time of year in northwash. Jeans work great, and I have some heavy cotton sweatshirts I use. Any cotton pants worn are likely to last at most ONE day. The sweatshirts seem to last longer, especially if reversed.

Since I never carry prusiks, I guess I can't come

Always bring a drybag. Fold it up neatly and hide it in the pack so it does not get scraped up.

Tom

[AJ]

Thanks for the compliment Ski. Yes, I am pretty organized/anal. Would like to avoid as many questions and issues as possible.

Glad you can make it Tanya. We'll see you there!

I like heavy cotton clothing for this time of year in northwash. Jeans work great, and I have some heavy cotton sweatshirts I use. Any cotton pants worn are likely to last at most ONE day. The sweatshirts seem to last longer, especially if reversed.

Since I never carry prusiks, I guess I can't come

Always bring a drybag. Fold it up neatly and hide it in the pack so it does not get scraped up.

Tom

Tom,

I'm sure you know the drawbacks of cotton; losing majority of insulating value when wet. Sure, if someone is just doing the Irish bunch, and they don't have water; cotton can work. Someone with your experience, I wouldn't worry too much about. However, I would be careful what you are posting to the general populace. Especially a post about NoobFest. I've gone into supposedly dry canyons and had a swim before - as I'm sure you have. Those situations could turn quite bad if you aren't adequately prepared. Only my opinion, I could be wrong.

In general, I'd recommend against cotton, unless you know for certain the canyons you are doing will be dry and/or the weather will be warm enough to warrant wearing cotton. (Niether of these are known at this time.)

Without prussiks, you can still come; just not on my trip. ;) Hope you can make it and will run a separate trip for a different set of canyons to your liking. Or join on my trip; whichever you prefer. I think I can let it slide that you don't have prussiks. One set per group will usually suffice. I think it's a good idea for those getting into the sport to have them though. I was planning on showing how to tie them and some of the uses for those that aren't already familiar...

As for the drybag; I don't ALWAYS carry one. Why would you carry one in Chambers or Sandthrax for instance? I put that if you have one, make sure it's protected. The important point is that many beginners might not have a drybag; and likely the canyons they are going in won't require one. So, don't worry if you don't have one. If you do have one, great, but make sure it's protected as the North Wash canyons are harsh for those who aren't familiar. Like Tom mentioned, make sure it fits inside your backpack...

Take care,
A.J.

[AJ]

By the way all. Sorry I can't plan to do less aggressive canyons and/or more planning right now; I already have about seven more trips in the planning phase, too many details already...

Tanya, are you looking to join my crew, or are you thinking of a different set of canyons. From your previous posts, I'd think you would be comfortable leading a group. What are you thinking?

Tom, are you coming out? Or were you just planning on giving advice to make my trip more adventurous? (Sending in the noobs in cotton...) Same question; you leading or joining?

Again, for those joining: Let us know the timeframe you are coming for, what your canyon plans/desires are, if you are looking for a ride or are willing to drive, if you have a stove you are willing to share, and most importantly whether you are experienced enough (and willing) to lead some canyons. Would be good to have some different options available...

[tanya]

By the way. Sorry I can't plan to do less aggressive canyons and/or more planning right now; I already have about seven more trips in the planning phase, too many details already...

Tanya, are you looking to join my crew, or are you thinking of a different set of canyons. From your previous posts, I'd think you would be comfortable leading a group. What are you thinking?

Tom, are you coming out? Or were you just planning on giving advice to make my trip more adventurous? (Sending in the noobs in cotton...) Same question; you leading or joining?

That's because you don't know me! I am pretty good at downclimbing or up for that matter and rappelling has never been a problem and I even have the little prussick things --- never used them but I do have them and even a pink helmet! Bo, Shane or Tom have done all that stuff on any canyon I have done in the past (usually while I take photos) --- but I am a good follower and do whatever is needed or desired of me. So even though I have done lots of stuff I need to go with a leader and in no way am one.

And most of all --- I like to follow men, not lead them.

[abirken]

By the way all. Sorry I can't plan to do less aggressive canyons and/or more planning right now; I already have about seven more trips in the planning phase, too many details already...

Tanya, are you looking to join my crew, or are you thinking of a different set of canyons. From your previous posts, I'd think you would be comfortable leading a group. What are you thinking?

Tom, are you coming out? Or were you just planning on giving advice to make my trip more adventurous? (Sending in the noobs in cotton...) Same question; you leading or joining?

Again, for those joining: Let us know the timeframe you are coming for, what your canyon plans/desires are, if you are looking for a ride or are willing to drive, if you have a stove you are willing to share, and most importantly whether you are experienced enough (and willing) to lead some canyons. Would be good to have some different options available...

Thanks for organizing this Noob trip. I'd love to go but allready have a hut reserved up Smuggler mountain outside of Aspen. I'll be doing my last snowshoe trip of the season. It's my farewell to the Winter and HELLO to Spring. Besides, you've got one beefy schedule there and I'm afraid I'd not be able to keep up!! Usually two canyons a weekend are it for me. I'm delicate like that. HAHA!!! Have a blast and can't wait to see photos!

[mtnmax]

I am going to be in that general area of Utah that whole week. Starting out in Capital Reef doing some non-technical canyons with my parents and was looking at doing some technical canyons later in the week. I may look at adjusting my plans to come down to the North Wash area. I was through the east fork of Leprechaun Canyon last year and I am intrested in some of the canyons in Posion spring area.

I have a 200' 9mm static rope and other assosicated technical gear I am somewhat new to canyoneering but have experince in caving, both horizontial and vertical, and rock climbing. I feel confident leading trips in some of the easier canyons.

[Iceaxe]

AJ, I split your trip off into it's own thread so it would be easier to organize.

Thanks for stepping up

[ratagonia]

I like heavy cotton clothing for this time of year in northwash. Jeans work great, and I have some heavy cotton sweatshirts I use. Any cotton pants worn are likely to last at most ONE day. The sweatshirts seem to last longer, especially if reversed.

Since I never carry prusiks, I guess I can't come

Always bring a drybag. Fold it up neatly and hide it in the pack so it does not get scraped up.

Tom

Tom,

I'm sure you know the drawbacks of cotton; losing majority of insulating value when wet. Sure, if someone is just doing the Irish bunch, and they don't have water; cotton can work. Someone with your experience, I wouldn't worry too much about. However, I would be careful what you are posting to the general populace. Especially a post about NoobFest. I've gone into supposedly dry canyons and had a swim before - as I'm sure you have. Those situations could turn quite bad if you aren't adequately prepared. Only my opinion, I could be wrong.

In general, I'd recommend against cotton, unless you know for certain the canyons you are doing will be dry and/or the weather will be warm enough to warrant wearing cotton. (Niether of these are known at this time.)

Without prussiks, you can still come; just not on my trip. ;) Hope you can make it and will run a separate trip for a different set of canyons to your liking. Or join on my trip; whichever you prefer. I think I can let it slide that you don't have prussiks. One set per group will usually suffice. I think it's a good idea for those getting into the sport to have them though. I was planning on showing how to tie them and some of the uses for those that aren't already familiar...

As for the drybag; I don't ALWAYS carry one. Why would you carry one in Chambers or Sandthrax for instance? I put that if you have one, make sure it's protected. The important point is that many beginners might not have a drybag; and likely the canyons they are going in won't require one. So, don't worry if you don't have one. If you do have one, great, but make sure it's protected as the North Wash canyons are harsh for those who aren't familiar. Like Tom mentioned, make sure it fits inside your backpack...

Take care,
A.J.

I'm tempted to say, "The Emperor has spoken. Quake ye who disregard the wisdom of He-Who-Canyons-A-Whole-Lot". But the noobs might see an inappropriate arrogance in that, so I guess I won't.

North Wash Canyons don't hold water. Exceptions are the The West Butlers (Shenanigans, Monkey Business, and Foolin' Around). Also-in-the-area canyons like Maidenwater and Trail tend to hold water. The Poison Springs canyons tend to have mud if wet, but not a whole lot of 'swimming', more just kinda messy. Of course, some of this is based on the beautiful dry weather we have been having down here, which is presumed to carry through to the time of this trip. Heck, it might be raining torrentially while you do these canyons for all I know.

The problem in North Wash usually is in staying cool, not staying warm. And it tears up clothing. So I don't bring even moderately expensive non-cotton clothing on these trips, I bring my worn out Old Navy Chinos and chew up one pair of pants a day, and my heavy cotton Ebay sweat shirts which don't seem to wear out. I may wear a capilene shirt on the approach, and a polyester fleece to change into in case I get cold, but usually change into the 'armor outfit' when we enter the canyon.

I don't carry prusiks and consider them almost an indicator of cluelessness, though some people I respect carry them. I always have something that I can climb the rope with at hand, so carrying seperate supplies to do some seems silly. Instead I carry multi-useful over-the-shoulder nylon slings and carabiners; and as leader, I usually carry a pair of tiblocs also. The possibility of anyone other than the leader having to climb the rope is remote - the possibility of the leader having to climb the rope is remote. Why make people go buy a piece of equipment they don't know how to use and won't need? If they know how to use prusiks, tiblocs and/or bachman's, they can already make an intelligent decision about whether they should bring them or not.

Non-locking biners??? CRAZY!!!!

I guess I don't ALWAYS carry I dry bag. Heck I don't have one right now! Modern drybags (POE) fold up neatly and hide in the back of your pack easily, and can save your butt (well, at least, keep your warm clothes dry) when coming upon the unexpected mandatory swim. YMMV

Emp

[AJ]

I'm tempted to say, "The Emperor has spoken. Quake ye who disregard the wisdom of He-Who-Canyons-A-Whole-Lot". But the noobs might see an inappropriate arrogance in that, so I guess I won't.

Might not just be the noobs... Thanks for your strength and willpower of restraint.

North Wash Canyons don't hold water. Exceptions are the The West Butlers (Shenanigans, Monkey Business, and Foolin' Around).

Which were on my list...

Also-in-the-area canyons like Maidenwater and Trail tend to hold water. The Poison Springs canyons tend to have mud if wet, but not a whole lot of 'swimming', more just kinda messy.

I've run into chest deep water in two of them. That's close enough, and definitely ample wet to cause an issue if it's not warm enough.

Of course, some of this is based on the beautiful dry weather we have been having down here, which is presumed to carry through to the time of this trip. Heck, it might be raining torrentially while you do these canyons for all I know.

Exactly.

The problem in North Wash usually is in staying cool, not staying warm. And it tears up clothing. So I don't bring even moderately expensive non-cotton clothing on these trips, I bring my worn out Old Navy Chinos and chew up one pair of pants a day, and my heavy cotton Ebay sweat shirts which don't seem to wear out. I may wear a capilene shirt on the approach, and a polyester fleece to change into in case I get cold, but usually change into the 'armor outfit' when we enter the canyon.

Depending on the time of the year; the weather is variable. In 2007, we were in the Roost in mid-march. The average temps were in the low 80's. We were originally planning against hypothermia, when in actuality it was dehydration that was more of a factor on that trip. Then, over a month later in April, we were in the 40's; and it was bitter cold in the North Wash area. That continued on. If you remember, it was only in the 40's when we met you at the Swell in early May.

That's why I put the weather links in there, and still advise against cotton.

As for the clothes, I never suggested going out and buying new under armor or such. I recommended going to Savers, Salvation army, etc. Nowadays, you can get synthetics for less than $5. I usually pay around $3 for my over-armor clothes. Heck, you can get new synthetic clothing at Walmart for $6. Like we both mentioned, North Wash is harsh; it will tear up clothing. Don't bring anything you don't mind getting shredded.

I don't carry prusiks and consider them almost an indicator of cluelessness, though some people I respect carry them. I always have something that I can climb the rope with at hand, so carrying seperate supplies to do some seems silly.

This thread is digressing quite rapidly. Tiblocks work fine for single lines, but if you are doing multiple lines, or if you want to attach for a meat anchor, or if you want to setup a pulley system, etc. Prussiks work better. As well, tiblocs can tear into a ropes sheath pretty quickly, and at my usual 8mm rope diameter; there isn't a whole lot of meat there as well as the tiblocs tend to slip a little more...

You can also use the cord for prussiks to extend a handle for the backpack in case they forgot that part. You can also use it to clip into an anchor. Most importantly, prussiks cost less than $5 total, where tiblocs are $20/each. Someone who is going to be a recreational canyoneer can benefit greatly from knowing what a prussik is and some of it's uses.

Instead I carry multi-useful over-the-shoulder nylon slings and carabiners; and as leader, I usually carry a pair of tiblocs also. The possibility of anyone other than the leader having to climb the rope is remote - the possibility of the leader having to climb the rope is remote. Why make people go buy a piece of equipment they don't know how to use and won't need?

Umm, because as I mentioned, I was planning on giving some pointers?

If they know how to use prusiks, tiblocs and/or bachman's, they can already make an intelligent decision about whether they should bring them or not.

I agree. If you look at my list, the only things I have as mandatory are the two locking biners and a helmet. Obviously people will need a harness and belay device. I make recommendations on other stuff, but if any of it isn't what you normally bring; and you can reasonably discuss why you don't want to carry them; I'm fine with that. Again, this thread was called NOOBFEST. This usually (to me) doesn't mean everyone is going to be experienced...

My list is more for those who don't have the experience to know what to bring. No offense, but it took a bit of time to put together; time I really don't have right now. If you want to debate it, I'd prefer you just give me a call. I'm more than willing to discuss. However, I don't think this thread is the appropriate place for this conversation.

Non-locking biners??? CRAZY!!!!

Dude, if you are having an issue with my list - step up to the plate and make your own. Run the trip. I'm just trying to help, and trying to give suggestions. You are experienced. You dialed in your system. I can respect that. Some of the stuff on the list, I may or may not carry as well, depending on conditions. However, just because someone doesn't carry what you carry doesn't make it wrong.

This point is moot however, as I never specified non-locking biners. I said two LARGE locking carabiners were mandatory. Any more were optional; and I just used the vague term "normal". I was considering normal sized; and didn't really care if it was locking or not.

That being said, I usually carry one or sometime two non-lockers, and have left them in a canyon or on a climb when the situation warrants. Rare, but it happens. I also prefer them for attaching some stuff to my harness; my prussiks for instance. They don't bind up as much when I'm taking them off.

I guess I don't ALWAYS carry I dry bag. Heck I don't have one right now! Modern drybags (POE) fold up neatly and hide in the back of your pack easily, and can save your butt (well, at least, keep your warm clothes dry) when coming upon the unexpected mandatory swim. YMMV

Emp

I agree. There are times and places for it. We're beating a dead horse already. If you have a dry bag, and plan on bringing it, just make sure it's protected. Hopefully, other trips step up and there are canyon options where people definitely won't need them.

Take care,
A.J.

[AJ]

Thanks for the new thread ice.

abirken, sorry you can't join us, but hope you have a great time on your hut trip!

mtnmax, if you have done caving and feel comfortable; I'm sure you will be fine. At the very least, I can give you a bunch of info and might be able to even get you to the head of the canyon like I mentioned in the trip. When we are there, if you have any questions, let me know and I'll help out as much as I can. Looking forward to seeing you there!

Dan and Shane, don't instigate. I'm sure you guys (as well as Tom) know that Tom knows his stuff. I definitely have a lot of respect for him. However, I don't know the experience level of people on this forum overall, as I have only met a few people that post here. Thus, I need to assume some folks will be new to canyoneering. I'm taking the safe approach.

I'm sorry to see that post Tanya. I hope my replies don't come off that way. I'm not saying Tom's way is wrong; just that there is usually more than one way to do things. Seems more like having to defend my list...

Anyway, Tom and others, hope there are no hard feelings; and hope to see you out there!

Tom, still waiting to hear if you are joining us!

[ratagonia]

Anyway, Tom and others, hope there are no hard feelings; and hope to see you out there!

Tom, still waiting to hear if you are joining us!

Unfortunately, I am priorly committed for that weekend.

I think you will find, AJ, that somewhat contentious arm-wrestling is considered part of the game. Welcome to UUtah... uh, Bogley.

Tom (if I still had hair... )==>

[ratagonia]

Non-locking biners??? CRAZY!!!!

Dude, if you are having an issue with my list - step up to the plate and make your own.

Bring whatever you want - except non-locking biners. Oh, and those spring-locking biners don't work either.

Tom

[stoysluttie1]

Aj....How many have committed to your trip
? Sounds like fun! We are looking for around the same area fo rthis weekend and have a few people coming and don't want to crash your party. Thanks Stoy

[tanya]

Is anyone from Bogley going! This is a warm, dry place to go right now. I can't go and am not doing the ACA thing due to a 2 day wrestling tournament, but some of you ought to snap this up!

Welcome new guy. Interesting ID

[AJ]

Stoy,

I have 6 confirmed and going for my aggressive trip (details in the original post.) Mtnmax may show up sometime (no details were given), and I have a gal thats coming in for part of Saturday (the Lep side) and likely Sunday.

Take care,
A.J.