education tangent

[stefan]

The American dream is/was all about working hard and getting ahead. High taxes make it so hard for small business owners to succeed. The American Dream is not taxing the workers so that those who do not work as hard may have a similar lifestyle. At what point does it become communism? The U.S. is already unimaginably more socialist than we were 100 or even 50 years ago. Our country was based on a principle of freedom that I believe is being taken away.

yet we pay the elementary/high school teacher peanuts, although they work so incredibly DAMN hard. not to mention the preschool teacher who gets paid next to nothing. there are so many people of different vocations who work their asses off in this country and get paid only a fraction of what they are worth. yet we somehow find it reasonable to allow people to become outrageously wealthy. i believe there should be some concern here ... don't you?

if the american dream you talk about is about working hard, then why are people not paid commensurately? more appropriately, it's working hard ONLY in particular lines of work in which one becomes financially successful. but this inequity is highly problematic as any reasonable person should willingly admit.

[DiscGo]

yet we pay the elementary/high school teacher peanuts, although they work so incredibly DAMN hard. not to mention the preschool teacher who gets paid next to nothing. there are so many people of different vocations who work their asses off in this country and get paid only a fraction of what they are worth. yet we somehow find it reasonable to allow people to become outrageously wealthy. i believe there should be some concern here ... don't you?

if the american dream you talk about is about working hard, then why are people not paid commensurately? more appropriately, it's working hard ONLY in particular lines of work in which one becomes financially successful. but this inequity is highly problematic as any reasonable person should willingly admit.

The American Dream is about doing what you want. If you want your life to be about making a difference than you might be a teacher. If you want your life to be about money, than perhaps you go in to business.

I have two brothers. 1 of them works 70 hours a week and has a very successful online business and his wife is an FBI agent (who also works between 40-70 hours a week). That brother has a very nice lifestyle (big house, kids are in private school, great cars, huge tv, etc.). His twin makes his living by taking care of mentally challenged individuals and his wife stays at home. The caretaker does not have an "impressive" lifestyle but he enjoys what he does and his kids have a mother at home. When my brothers were starting out, they knew what they were getting in to and they made the decisions to do so.

Nobody becomes a teacher for the money. They do it because they want to make a difference. My oldest brother does not "make a difference" in a feel good manner but he has a great entertain system. Different people are fulfilled differently.

Just to be clear, I have nothing against teachers. My wife graduated college with a teaching degree and substitute teaches because she has not even been able to get a job teaching yet. I'm all for teachers getting paid more, but not the expense of taking the money from people who have chosen a different honest profession to make their living. It is just all about priorities and choices.

The money to pay teachers more should come from a proper use of the current misused funds this country spends.

[stefan]

Nobody becomes a teacher for the money.

missing the point here ... we're obviously not talking about going into teaching to make lots of money ... we're just talking about teachers getting paid reasonably instead of substandardly.

Just to be clear, I have nothing against teachers. My wife graduated college with a teaching degree and substitute teaches because she has not even been able to get a job teaching yet. I'm all for teachers getting paid more, but not the expense of taking the money from people who have chosen a different honest profession to make their living. It is just all about priorities and choices.

The money to pay teachers more should come from a proper use of the current misused funds this country spends.

sorry ... this is a cop-out answer.

[DiscGo]

Nobody becomes a teacher for the money.

missing the point here ... we're obviously not talking about going into teaching to make lots of money ... we're just talking about teachers getting paid reasonably instead of substandardly.

No you are missing the point. Teachers are currently compensated by doing something rewarding. They chose a different compensation for their line of work. How many different issues do you guys want to bring up in this thread?

[DiscGo]

"In my opinion, being liberal is being able to look at issues from many sides, and making decisions based on facts and intelligent research"

For the record that is nothing to do with being liberal, that is being "unbiased".

[Reedus]

Gotta agree with the Discman, teachers choose their profession and they know they won't make jack crap doing so. If they want to whine about not getting paid enough, fine, it is a free country with open opportunities. Get another job that brings in the bling.

[stefan]

No you are missing the point. Teachers are currently compensated by doing something rewarding. They chose a different compensation for their line of work.

your rhetoric is astounding </sarcasm>

it's mind-numbing to me how conservatives and republicans are so inconsiderate with the flow of money in this country. i think you've just demonstrated that very nicely here.

it's no wonder education is going downhill in this country. i guess some of us just don't really care.

[stefan]

If they want to whine about not getting paid enough, fine, it is a free country with open opportunities. Get another job that brings in the bling.

Yes, but that's exactly what they are doing. There is a shortage of teachers because more and more are leaving. They get their experience and Utah and leave. Meanwhile, class sizes are increasing.

and class sizes in utah are the very highest in the nation.

[TreeHugger]

Nobody becomes a teacher for the money.

missing the point here ... we're obviously not talking about going into teaching to make lots of money ... we're just talking about teachers getting paid reasonably instead of substandardly.

Just to be clear, I have nothing against teachers. My wife graduated college with a teaching degree and substitute teaches because she has not even been able to get a job teaching yet. I'm all for teachers getting paid more, but not the expense of taking the money from people who have chosen a different honest profession to make their living. It is just all about priorities and choices.

The money to pay teachers more should come from a proper use of the current misused funds this country spends.

sorry ... this is a cop-out answer.

Ahhhh, the teacher debate.... another thread, perhaps? :-) Being a teacher, I'm sure I could spew opinuendo on this topic for awhile! :-)

[DiscGo]

your rhetoric is astounding </sarcasm>

it's mind-numbing to me how conservatives and republicans are so inconsiderate with the flow of money in this country. i think you've just demonstrated that very nicely here.

it's no wonder education is going downhill in this country. i guess some of us just don't really care.

How are you going to say that I don't care about education? My wife worked hard through high school and got scholarships to college because she grew up knowing education was important. My wife graduated Magnum Cum Laude from BYU with a degree in history teaching. I spent six summers working 70+ hours a week in Alaska to pay for my own schooling and graduated from college without receiving a dime from my parents or anyone else.

I spend a couple of hours a day reading up about politics and watching the news. I am far more informed than the average citizen/voter and I do try and find the unbiased truth behind a story instead of being spoon-fed by anyone in the media.

Richard Barron has been very intelligent with his points and very polite in his corrections but most of the people in this thread defending the liberal point of view have been very rude. I have been very open and direct with you with my views but I have not scoffed at your views or used sarcasm to dismiss them.

[stefan]

your rhetoric is astounding </sarcasm>

it's mind-numbing to me how conservatives and republicans are so inconsiderate with the flow of money in this country. i think you've just demonstrated that very nicely here.

it's no wonder education is going downhill in this country. i guess some of us just don't really care.

How are you going to say that I don't care about education? My wife worked hard through high school and got scholarships to college because she grew up knowing education was important. My wife graduated Magnum Cum Laude from BYU with a degree in history teaching. I spent six summers working 70+ hours a week in Alaska to pay for my own

well now we're not really talking about any of those things. specifically we were talking about paying teachers more, but more generally we're talking about the funding of education. education is a fundamental piece of our society, i believe you recognize this. funding education is important on so many different levels. a trivial argument can be made ... increasing the salaries of teachers will attract better people for the job, who are instead looking elsewhere to ensure their financial security. [quality of teachers decreases if there is less incentive to be one.] conservatives/republicans have a record of seeking to cut education funding. [FYI: this is where the "care" comment was directed.] if you respect education so dearly as you claim, how can you turn your back on it, when it is clear that it relies so heavily on funding [based on your back-seat comment, and perhaps more generally your conservativism] teaching may be rewarding work, perhaps more rewarding than other higher paying jobs, but your "charity/reward" attitude is what i completely disagree with. you dismiss these teachers, their effort and the education system as a whole when you make comments that teachers seek compensation in different ways ... hence the sarcasm.

education needs to be better funded and supported. why don't you believe this is a priority?

[DiscGo]

I'd call it dancing around the issue without really taking a vocal stance. but i like people in office who put education (amongst many other things) as a higher priority. this has nothing to do with my vocation, it has everything to do with believing in the greatness of this country and how it is a better, more innovative, and more thoughtful country if it is better educated.

I totally agree with you. One big problem I have with the two party system is that if the Democrats want make education a priority, than the Republicans don't. I know that the Republicans would never admit to that, but like you say actions speak louder than words.

I stand behind my statement before, about teachers going in to education for a different reward than money. This is a free country and clearly they don't choose to be teachers for the financial rewards. My wife is honestly the most intelligent person I know. She was the valedictorian of her high school, graduated college with honors, speaks 3 languages fluently (English, French and Mandarin), etc. My wife could have done anything, but decided to be a teacher to make a difference. My wife is incredible and as I said before she has not been able to get a full time teaching position, because there are so many applicants. One reason why the teachers are so poorly paid here in Utah is that so many people want to stay here and are willing to work for less, so the state does not have to be competitive in their wages (which is a mistake).