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Thread: ACA Canyon Rating System
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11-29-2007, 03:54 PM #1
ACA Canyon Rating System
Is it time to revisit the ACA Canyon Rating system?
http://www.canyoneering.net/content/...?categoryid=23
The ACA Canyon Rating System was developed over a period of time in 2000 and 2001. At it's foundation was a rating system used by Stefan Hofmann in his book, "Canyoning". We posted it on an internet forum and asked for input from the community. From the input we posted another system and asked for more input. This process continued until we felt we reached a consensus.
The system has been in place for six years and seems to be working well, but I have heard some suggestions for improvements. I started a thread on the ACA forums to solicit input to determine if the system should be modified and if so how. Please share your comments and suggestions at:
http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/s...ead.php?t=1855
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11-29-2007 03:54 PM # ADS
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11-29-2007, 04:37 PM #2
Rich,
I believe the current rating system is really good, at least from a guidebook author's perspective. I've noticed over the years that those suggesting changes are not the ones who actually have to implement the system into actual use. 99% of the suggested improvements I hear actually belong in the detailed route description and not the rough outline a rating provides.
Anyhoo.... I know the current big bitch concerns serious mae west type slots. I believe that concern is easily covered with a minor tweak as noted below. I believe many of the current sprayers of beta have already implement wording of a similar type to one degree or anther.
Advanced Canyoneering
Route may involve any combination of the following: 1) Advanced free climbing. difficult and exposed free climbing and/or down-climbing, 2) climbing using direct aid, 3) multi-pitch rappels, 4) complex rope work (i.e. guided rappels, deviations, rebelays), 5) obscure or indistinct natural anchors, 6) advanced problem-solving and anchor-building skills. 7) Advanced pothole escape techniques. See route description for more information.
ONE BIG SUGGESTION for those commenting on improvements, before making a suggestion ask yourself "Does this really belong in the ratings or is it betterer suited for the route description?"
Also.... I'm not a fan of changing horses in the middle of the race. Most of the current guidebooks and authors are using some variation of the original ACA rating. Changing it will result in chaos for the next 10 years.
Thanks for playing....
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11-29-2007, 05:02 PM #3
In the ACA forums thread I posted some examples of suggestions people have submitted. One of the issues is the number of canyons in Utah that are rated 3B, 3B, 3B, 3B ...
If any changes are made, it will be very important not to totally change things and rendering existing guidebooks instantly out-of-date. For example, a 3B canyon should remain a 3B canyon, but perhaps that rating could be broken down further like YDS does with Class 5 climbs. Maybe 3.1, 3.2, etc.
Also important that the system doesn't become excessively cumbersome. I wouldn't be a fan of adding .0 through .15 for example. It would take much too long for people to reach consensus regarding the difference between .8 and .9. Maybe limited it to 3.1 through 3.5. ??
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11-29-2007, 05:25 PM #4
Not an exact science but I currently use the R as a type of plus/minus system....
A canyon rated 3B R is a step up.... A canyon rated 2B R would mean advanced hikers can do it without tech gear but noob's are going to get in big trouble.
But this still brings back the old problem of when exactly does a canyon go from being a 3 to a 4? And with the ever changing canyon conditions of the CP I see a major problem in attempting to rate the canyons precisely. I've always considered the wide variance that the current system allows to actually be one of it's strong points....
A guess a good extreme example might be the Black Hole.... that has recently gone from 2B to 4B R and back to 2B all in a very short time... a second example might be Choprock, that canyon has the potential to go anywhere from 3B to 4B R/X depending on water conditions and current logjams. And its highly possiable you will see both ends of the spectrum over the course of a single year in some of these canyons.
Heck.... many of the current guidebook authors already have a major problem pin pointing the borderline canyons, is Subway a 2B, 2B R or 3B? it's listed at all three depending on where you get your intel.... trying to refine the numbers further just creates a quagmire. If you are hell bent on trying to refine the numbers I suggest a plus/minus would be the best option for what I think is a bad idea.
YMMV
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11-29-2007, 07:58 PM #5Originally Posted by Iceaxenat smale
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11-29-2007, 08:14 PM #6
I agree with the 3.1 or 3.2 adaptation. This would preserve the original 3BIII ratings, but newer publications could have the decimals added.
I also like increasing the rating to a 4 more often. If there is ever advanced canyoneering, I think the 4 should be applied. Tom has done this with certain canyons, such as Choprock or even Shimrock, when there are dangers that don't exist in some of the easier canyons. Someone who is large and inexperienced could be in trouble in a seemingly easy slot like Shimrock. Just a quick read through the route descriptions could leave them woefully under prepared.
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11-29-2007, 08:58 PM #7Originally Posted by nat
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11-29-2007, 09:15 PM #8Originally Posted by CarpeyBiggs
I'm all for a better rating system if you guys can actually come up with one.... but I've been playing this ratings game a long time and usually every idea to solve one problem opens up two other problems..... Heck I've notice MK doesn't even restrict canyons to 3 or 4. His description often reads something like "This canyon is a 3, or maybe a 4."
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11-29-2007, 09:16 PM #9Originally Posted by Iceaxenat smale
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11-29-2007, 09:22 PM #10Originally Posted by nat
Take The Subway for example because almost everyone has done The Subway. Dang that is a bordeline canyon.... and no matter how you adjust the ratings it's still a borderline canyon.... is it a 2 or 3? or maybe a 2.5 or a 3.1? Maybe a 2+ or a 3-......
And you did pick the two extremes as an example.... Keyhole might be the easiest 3 on the planet and HDH might be the hardest 3... And I tag HDH with a R because it does have some places you don't want to fall and it does have some places fat guys would get stuck, which does meet the "One or more extraordinary risk factors" criteria. So they really are not really rated the same.
Just more food for thought....
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11-29-2007, 09:33 PM #11Originally Posted by Iceaxe
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
If it says anything other than 3.1, I am sure they would be wondering "oh, I wonder what makes this unusual."
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11-29-2007, 09:36 PM #12
Ratings, Schmatings!
Originally Posted by Iceaxe
I'm more in favor of adding a SLOT- rating to the canyons that have slot-canyon climbing problems (ie, Mae-Westing).
Also, I think HDH has or can have some difficult pothole exits or avoids, which means it earns a 4 in my book, er, website, if it was on there. Drumroll please...
Shimrock 3A III SLOT-PG (>200lbs, SLOT-R)
Sandthrax 4A III SLOT-X- 5.10 A2
Hard Day, Harv? 4A or B SLOT-PG+
YES, the "3" rating covers a lot of ground, but subdividing? Based on what? People going through the Subway for the first time should still carry a rope. "3 raps to 30 feet" kinda gives it away that there's not much in the way of ropework.
Tom
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11-29-2007, 09:46 PM #13
For What It's Worth.... I consider rating routes to be the most difficult part of writing a guide.... It's usually the last thing I do and I always try to poll a broad base of canyoneers to get a well rounded rating. It's easy to rate one or two canyons, they always fit nicely into whatever category you create, and if they don't you slide your scale so they do fit nicely..... but try rating 100 canyons and you lose the ability to slide your scale, and no matter what you do you have borderline routes and you always have an extreme at both ends of whatever category you create.
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11-29-2007, 09:47 PM #14
Re: Ratings, Schmatings!
Originally Posted by ratagonia
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11-29-2007, 11:11 PM #15
A.J. posted a suggestion on the ACA forum to start using G and PG in addition to the R and X. Currently, R and X are supposed to represent risk. If people started thinking in terms of both risk and experience required, this could be a simple and effective solution.
Keyhole and Subway become 3B G. Pine Creek and Mystery become 3B PG. Etc.
Personally not a fan of long, multi-variable ratings. Some of that information simply needs to be in the description.
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11-30-2007, 07:18 AM #16
I think the current canyon rating system is working fine. The route description is the best place to explain detail of the R or X or additional obstacles or technical skills required since the variety of these are many in any given canyon.
A possible solution may be to change the beta format v.s. changing the canyon rating system. To quickly help a canyoneer determine what special skill sets or hazards may be in the canyon, the beta publisher could briefly summarize in a short paragraph below the rating before going into the route description. This would be potentially duplicating beta within beta on a particular canyon, however it would allow a canyoneer to quickly determine whether it is within their ability without reading the whole route.
Bruce
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11-30-2007, 07:54 AM #17
I think that this is a great topic to discuss, but I see a long and argumentative road ahead if this system is to be changed.
Every time we teach a canyoneering course at North Wash Outfitters and discuss canyon ratings it is shown how subjective the ratings can be, as has already been discussed in this forum. We give the students the understanding of what the ratings mean, but also the understanding that the ratings are going to mean different things to people with different skill levels.
I would entertain the idea of revamping the ratings to a point. As mentioned already, I would agree that some more description is needed to clarify the difficulty rating in the 3 category. I also agree that we should not lower the standards of 4 ratings by turning 3's into 4's.
I do like the idea of adding in a decimal system, but that begs the question as to how difficult is a 3.1 over a 3.0? Where do the differences come from? What is the difference with a 3.5 and a 4? It still leaves some ambiguity in the ratings.
I'm not too big on the idea of the G, PG etc. rating. It makes me feel like I am going to the movies and to me the feeling of going to a movie isn't as dangerous as a Mae west stem 60' off the deck. I think it diminishes the risk involved.
I think that a lot of the responsibility is still going to lie with the providers of beta and guide books. They should not feel that it is the ratings sole responsibility to give their readers an understanding of every obstacle there is. They should be describing the canyon in enough detail as to provide their reader's with the understanding of what that canyon holds. This means discussing the pot holes, rappel situations, anchors, swims etc. Even with those descriptions, canyons change and claims have been made in beta that got people into trouble in canyons because the layout had changed due to a recent storm that flashed the canyon. I don't feel that this is something that a re-vamp on the rating system would be able to fix.
My .04Jared Hillhouse
North Wash Outfitters LLP.
Twitter: @North_Wash
N.W.O. on Facebook
"Great Adventure Buddies Make It Happen"
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11-30-2007, 10:18 AM #18Originally Posted by Iceaxenat smale
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11-30-2007, 12:32 PM #19
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11-30-2007, 12:34 PM #20
Or you can use the MK approach.... the canyon is a 3 or maybe a 4, but sometimes a 2.
All I'm really saying is if you think you have a bright idea lets see you first apply it to a long list of canyons and see how it works out.... if after that little test you still think it's a bright idea lets chat.
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