Granary Canyon?

[Iceaxe]

Different strokes for different folks... But let's really be honest here, you just love Moab canyons because they are close to hotels, booze, and ESPN.

Don't forget wild women.....

But "NO".... most folks just haven't figure it out yet.... there are several canyon routes around Moab that will get the ol' pucker factor up dang high, which is what I think a lot of the hardcore type folks look for. And it's hard to find more pretty country anywhere, which is what I think a lot of the weekend warrior types look for.

And I also disagree with your reasoning on why many of the Moab routes are flying under the radar. I just don't think it's been hit hard yet in any type of "professional" manner. Curious to see what, if anything, comes out in Kelsey's next book. I know he has poked around in the area a little. And while I know Matt hate's to see "his" routes become popular, I'd say its pretty hard to argue they should be a private cash register when they are on public land.

[CarpeyBiggs]

But "NO".... most folks just haven't figure it out yet.... there are several canyon routes around Moab that will get the ol' pucker factor up dang high, which is what I think a lot of the hardcore type folks look for. And it's hard to find more pretty country anywhere, which is what I think a lot of the weekend warrior types look for.

Really? Where are these fantastic canyons you speak of? Must be Cameltoe, or maybe Tierdrop and Bighorn? Or maybe Courthouse Wash? You holding out on us Shane?

I'd say its pretty hard to argue they should be a private cash register when they are on public land.

Of course you would argue that, you gotta get your fingers in that cookie jar too, right? You should at least give Matt some kickbacks though, since you are just finding his routes anyways.

There are plenty of reasons why the Moab stuff doesn't get done a lot. Mainly, there just isn't a lot of really good canyons (whatever that means...) There might be some fun "routes" but I wouldn't call most of them slots.

[Iceaxe]

Of course you would argue that, you gotta get your fingers in that cookie jar too, right? You should at least give Matt some kickbacks though, since you are just finding his routes anyways.

Does this mean Matt should be giving me a kick back on everyone he guides through Leprechaun, Blarney and Shimrock???

Just want to know when I should start looking for my check in the mail.

You holding out on us Shane?

Holding out is not the words I'd use.... just haven't got around to completing several projects..... And I can't post one without giving up the others..... and I'd like to wait until after Kelsey's next book so they don't show up there..... and.. and...

I know it's not your cup of tea, but a web page noting something like Big Horn gets about 100 times the hits as a web page listing some obscure hardcore canyon that only a relative few have the skills to do. In other words.... I attempt to cater my stuff to the majority and add the rest when the opportunity arises.

And I know how much you enjoy poking fun at things like my different swimming hole pages.... but they are some of my most popular attractions.

There are plenty of reasons why the Moab stuff doesn't get done a lot. Mainly, there just isn't a lot of really good canyons (whatever that means...)

Thanks for making my point... That's the attitude that has caused Moab to be overlooked....

All I can say is.... seek and you shall find.

[CarpeyBiggs]

Holding out is not the words I'd use.... just haven't got around to completing several projects..... And I can't post one without giving up the others..... and I'd like to wait until after Kelsey's next book so they don't show up there..... and.. and...

Oh come now, you can't put this on MK. We know it hasn't stopped you before. Almost all of your stuff coincides with his stuff anyways.

I know it's not your cup of tea, but a web page noting something like Big Horn gets about 100 times the hits as a web page listing some obscure hardcore canyon that only a relative few have the skills to do. In other words.... I attempt to cater my stuff to the majority and add the rest when the opportunity arises.

Can't fault you for that. No doubt there is lots of great stuff to be seen all around Moab. I just wouldn't consider it quality canyoneering. But what do I know, I talk like I've seen all of it down there. I'm sure there is much I haven't the faintest clue about. Technical canyons though? Probably not. Nice destinations, hikes, and "routes?" Yeah, probably.

And I know how much you enjoy poking fun at things like my different swimming hole pages.... but they are some of my most popular attractions.

Again, I poke a little fun, but I can see why you are adding those. No doubt your stuff fills a niche for those types of destinations. All I'm saying is it probably isn't enough to keep me renewing my $30 a year, that's all.

Thanks for making my point... That's the attitude that has caused Moab to be overlooked....

Overlooked by whom? There is a lot of good stuff out there. It is "overlooked" by most of the canyoneers simply because it isn't a choice canyon destination, compared to other locations.

All I can say is.... seek and you shall find.

Or figure out what other people are doing, and you shall find...

[moab mark]

I do not live in moab , I live in Kaysville. I just go there several times a month in the good months for the past 15 years. I mainly jeep and mountain bike. But a few years ago went on a Scout outing to Zion and got hooked on this canyoneering gig.
As far as finding a route from Desert Highlights I can see both sides of the arguement. On oneside I look on Climb Utah and most of the ones that Desert Highlights list Shane list. Who had them first is neither here or there to me it's public land. If Desert Highlights wanted to sale the beta to the canyon like shane is doing by joining his website I would surely pay. I do not mind paying them for the info and I will have to probably go with them to learn about it but it's is alot more of an adventure going by yourself.
The same type of problem has come up with the Jeep Safari. The club has made arrangements with the BLM to keep people off the trails to cut down congestion when they are running them during the safari. Is this fair or not. They developed most of these trails over time and without the support of the jeep club fighting legal battles against the "fairy tree huggers" there would probably be alot of those trails closed. As far as making money the Charles Wells book (I think that's his name) has sold a ton of copies detailing the trails in moab, and did the jeep club get a cut for showing him around?
On this same topic I read somewhere that Zion Adventure had tied up some canyon around Zion for doing teaching and training. Is this on public land or Private? Anyone know anything about this?
On Shanes point on slots in moab, the beauty of moab is, not only can you canyoneer but you can also bike, jeep and stay in really nice motels with pools and resturants. My wife and kids like that part. Zion is absolutely awesome but doesn't cater nearly as well to the whole family like moab does. Im done rambling now.
Thanks

[Iceaxe]

Oh come now, you can't put this on MK. We know it hasn't stopped you before. Almost all of your stuff coincides with his stuff anyways.

Kelsey was one of the many reasons I listed, you can't just pick the one reason that suits your argument..... but.... Kelsey is a member of the Circle of Friends and I have every one of his books in my library. We also have many of the same friends, connections and associates. I talk shop with MK several times each year and consider him a friend.... so is it really a big surprise that we have a major amount of over lap??? But we still try and top each other, its just part of the game. I understand MK is pretty excited that his next book has some stuff I have not heard of.

Again, I poke a little fun, but I can see why you are adding those. No doubt your stuff fills a niche for those types of destinations. All I'm saying is it probably isn't enough to keep me renewing my $30 a year, that's all.

Honestly.... a guy like you is not my target audience. You are now well enough connected in the canyon community that you can probably get a route description to anything I might have on my website from other sources, particularly after its several months old. But that is also one of the reasons I've tried to lower the renewal rates is to keep more members like you.... at some point in time it becomes cheaper and less hassle for a guy like you to just renew then it is to chase the info and gather the maps through other venues.

Or figure out what other people are doing, and you shall find...

Hell..... I've never denied that.... or stated otherwise.... probably 80% or more of the routes I post come from "outside sources". I get a tremendous amount of help from a lot of different people and I really appreciate every one of those who help.

As for the rest.... YES, you are correct..... no good canyons around Moab, nothing to see there, nothing of interest, just move along please, no reason to stop or look....

[Iceaxe]

Mark,

ZAC has permission to guide Oak Creek in Zion and the entire canyon is on private land. More info here:

http://climb-utah.com/Zion/oc-sf1.htm

As for Moab I hope to have additional routes up soon. More Moab is currently at the top of my to-do list as it is the most requested destination.

[CarpeyBiggs]

As for the rest.... YES, you are correct..... no good canyons around Moab, nothing to see there, nothing of interest, just move along please, no reason to stop or look....

Ok, I fold. There are a few that look nice. Entrajo also looks real good... Is that on your radar? I'll renew my fee if you give me Entrajo, Granary, and Pleaides.

[rockgremlin]

I'll renew my fee if you give me Entrajo, Granary, and Pleaides.

I already told ta where Pleaides is....granted I haven't been through there yet, but I've been to it's head, and the descriptions all check out. I'm pretty sure the days of Pleaides' secrecy are numbered, and I'm pretty sure that number is less than 365.

[Iceaxe]

I'll renew my fee if you give me Entrajo, Granary, and Pleaides.

Dang... that works out to $6.67 for each route..... nice to see you blow the dust off your wallet.... hope you can squeak it open with all the rust in the hinges.

[CarpeyBiggs]

Dang... that works out to $6.67 for each route..... nice to see you blow the dust off your wallet.... hope you can squeak it open with all the rust in the hinges.

Me too... But just think, if I buy Kelsey's book, I get routes for something like $.10 a piece, and I get to keep it forever...

Seriously though, what's the deal on Entrajo?

[CarpeyBiggs]

I already told ta where Pleaides is....granted I haven't been through there yet, but I've been to it's head, and the descriptions all check out. I'm pretty sure the days of Pleaides' secrecy are numbered, and I'm pretty sure that number is less than 365.

Congratulations, I know that one has been a real thorn in your ass for awhile now...

[Iceaxe]

Seriously though, what's the deal on Entrajo?

I have a bunch of beta on Moab stuff to do.... but honestly.... I usually don't know which are Matt's canyon until after I do them. Then I compare the route to pictures on Matt's website. I've never specifically targeted Matt's routes.

Lot of times I get beta by chatting up a hiker/jeeper/climber/ranger and they will mention "I saw a guide with clients at X spot." Then I can usually figure it out. But also something to remember, Matt is not the only one guiding canyons in Moab, so just because I know a route is being guided doesn't mean it's one of Matt's.

And the guides do a descent job of trying to hide their routes.... A few years back on of the Moab guides was advertising "Cass Canyon" and it looked spectacular from the pictures..... took me a while to figure out it was the popular Black Hole.

Anyhoo... what I'm really saying is.... I might or might not have Entrajo. But I do not currently have the route with that name pinned to it.

[stefan]

Me too... But just think, if I buy Kelsey's book, I get routes for something like $.10 a piece, and I get to keep it forever...

of course it's not terribly difficult to keep a website forever either. just dump all the files to disk. many lovely programs do this.

[CarpeyBiggs]

Anyhoo... what I'm really saying is.... I might or might not have Entrajo. But I do not currently have the route with that name pinned to it

Gotcha. I thought I remembered you posting you had done the it before, so I was wondering why it wasn't on your site. Anyways, it looks good.

of course it's not terribly difficult to keep a website forever either. just dump all the files to disk. many lovely programs do this.

Indeed. But what I would really love.... Is if Shane made them into PDF's that were designed to be printed... Wuddya think Shane? That would be sweet.

[Iceaxe]

Gosh.... I'm trying to hold costs down so Carpey will blow the dust off his wallet and now he wants me to add more features????

I agree... The PDF's are sweet.... but making the routes into a PDF is a pain in the butt for me because every time I change a route I also have to change the PDF, and I'm always changing stuff. Dozens of small items get changed every month and only the major revisions get noted.

Several years ago I did redo the site to make it printer friendly and to strip out all the pictures. From your side it only requires the click of a button to print the route, and if you want to be really cool just send the page to your PDF print driver and you have what you desire.

I do know a lot of folks keep my site in a binder.... after the inital printing it's pretty simple to keep it reasonably current because I do list all major revisions. I've also toyed with the idea of making the site avaiable on CD, but really its just more hassle to me then its worth.

You guys sometimes forget the website is just a hobby to me. But I do appreciate the suggestions on improving the site.

[CarpeyBiggs]

Gosh.... I'm trying to hold costs down so Carpey will blow the dust off his wallet and now he wants me to add more features????

And your costs are just through the roof, I'm sure...

I do know a lot of folks keep my site in a binder.... after the inital printing it's pretty simple to keep it reasonably current because

I do the same, I just don't think they are formatted well for the printed page... I've reformatted them for myself, to make them print all on one page, which is what is the most annoying aspect of the current design. I find it preferable to carry the beta and the map on one paper, front and back. Why waste paper, right?

You guys sometimes forget the website is just a hobby to me. But I do appreciate the suggestions on improving the site.

Nope, didn't forget. But since I am a paying customer, I figured I'd offer up what I'd like to see. Take it for what it's worth. (about $30 per year )