Off-road activist says he's tossed in the towel

[Rev. Coyote]

What about this?!?

[ExpUt]

...If you use a little common sense you would understand. Look at how wide apart the ruts are, if you can fit an ATV in it than we did it. If it is to wide for an ATV it was a jeep or a truck.

You should author a book on "Detecting and Classifying Off-Road Ruts - Vol. 1". Seriously, your assuming that every truck and every 4 wheeler has a locked rear axle, which is NOT the cases, your assuming that every rut is discovered shortly after it is created. Add some rain/water into the mix and you'll never know where a rut came from. And where are these "ruts" that are even a significant issue? The issue is people driving off of the trail, in illegal areas, etc... not ruts IMO. Ruts are easily repaired when needed, in most cases a winter repairs them naturally. Illegal trail construction and trail weaving does not... I stand by my thesis that "most" OHV "damage" is caused by the 4-wheeler and side x side crowd. I'm being as bold not to call it an opinion, rather an official stance.

...Because the weight of an atv is much less it does not tear up the ground as much or leave deap ruts like a jeep or truck does ...

Again, your logic escapes me, but I'll wait for the book. I'm sure you'll take into account all the aspects of the 4wheeler such as increased instance of wheel-spin, overly aggressive tires, etc.

[Rev. Coyote]

And where are these "ruts" that are even a significant issue?.

It's an issue in San Juan County.

Ruts are easily repaired when needed, in most cases a winter repairs them naturally.

Not the ones off-trail (and I hope you're not suggesting that). I lot of the plant species take years to come back. Krypto crust is particularly hard to reestablish.

[orvis1]

...If you use a little common sense you would understand. Look at how wide apart the ruts are, if you can fit an ATV in it than we did it. If it is to wide for an ATV it was a jeep or a truck.

You should author a book on "Detecting and Classifying Off-Road Ruts - Vol. 1". Seriously, your assuming that every truck and every 4 wheeler has a locked rear axle, which is NOT the cases, your assuming that every rut is discovered shortly after it is created. Add some rain/water into the mix and you'll never know where a rut came from. And where are these "ruts" that are even a significant issue? The issue is people driving off of the trail, in illegal areas, etc... not ruts IMO. Ruts are easily repaired when needed, in most cases a winter repairs them naturally. Illegal trail construction and trail weaving does not... I stand by my thesis that "most" OHV "damage" is caused by the 4-wheeler and side x side crowd. I'm being as bold not to call it an opinion, rather an official stance.

...Because the weight of an atv is much less it does not tear up the ground as much or leave deap ruts like a jeep or truck does ...

Again, your logic escapes me, but I'll wait for the book. I'm sure you'll take into account all the aspects of the 4wheeler such as increased instance of wheel-spin, overly aggressive tires, etc.

The point is the wheelbase lengh is different for a atv and a vehicle. Anyone with eyeballs can see that, look at the width of the rut and you can tell how it was created. I never stated that irresponsible OHV riders don't blaze new trials and that is the problem. If you give those riders less area to ride imagine what the riding area's will look like. I hope I am speaking english here, common sense dictates heavier machines will sink further in the mud. Or are you expecting some kind of physics lesson on how that works. Get over yourself the atv community does a lot for the land as well. Do you think biker/hikers don't leave trash? And where the hell did you get my family photo's?

[orvis1]

Because the weight of an atv is much less it does not tear up the ground as much or leave deap ruts like a jeep or truck does.

Any jacka$$ with a heavy throttle can tear up ground. So by your theory motorcycles would leave no ruts what so ever because they're just above weightlessness?

Wow thanks for adding so much to the conversation! Your comments just lowered the collective IQ of everyone wasted 1 min to read them. Weightless 4-wheelers what color is the sky where you live?

[Rev. Coyote]

The point is the wheelbase lengh is different for a atv and a vehicle. Anyone with eyeballs can see that, look at the width of the rut and you can tell how it was created. I never stated that irresponsible OHV riders don't blaze new trials and that is the problem. If you give those riders less area to ride imagine what the riding area's will look like. I hope I am speaking english here, common sense dictates heavier machines will sink further in the mud. Or are you expecting some kind of physics lesson on how that works. Get over yourself the atv community does a lot for the land as well. Do you think biker/hikers don't leave trash? And where the hell did you get my family photo's?

A lot has to do with tire width and pressure as to how much impact is made. The theory of "floatation."

[orvis1]

The point is the wheelbase lengh is different for a atv and a vehicle. Anyone with eyeballs can see that, look at the width of the rut and you can tell how it was created. I never stated that irresponsible OHV riders don't blaze new trials and that is the problem. If you give those riders less area to ride imagine what the riding area's will look like. I hope I am speaking english here, common sense dictates heavier machines will sink further in the mud. Or are you expecting some kind of physics lesson on how that works. Get over yourself the atv community does a lot for the land as well. Do you think biker/hikers don't leave trash? And where the hell did you get my family photo's?

A lot has to do with tire width and pressure as to how much impact is made. The theory of "floatation."

You still never told me where you snapped my photo at!

[Rev. Coyote]

You still never told me where you snapped my photo at!

I have people working for me. Let's just leave it at that.

[orvis1]

You still never told me where you snapped my photo at!

I have people working for me. Let's just leave it at that.

Let's just hope they aren't able to catch a pic of me in my swimsuit at lake powell! I would hate to be harponed again.... LOL>..

[JP]

Wow thanks for adding so much to the conversation! Your comments just lowered the collective IQ of everyone wasted 1 min to read them. Weightless 4-wheelers what color is the sky where you live?

No, it's the BS you attempted to cast over you're recreation being the least destructive. Don't get all pissy because you were called on it.

[ExpUt]

The point is the wheelbase lengh is different for a atv and a vehicle. Anyone with eyeballs can see that, look at the width of the rut and you can tell how it was created.

Your right, the wheelbase is different, but then again wheel base has nothing to do with width, track width does. You have your theories, I have my experience.

I hope I am speaking english here, common sense dictates heavier machines will sink further in the mud. Or are you expecting some kind of physics lesson on how that works.

Not a physics lesson, you've already proven your not qualified to give that ;) It has nothing to do with the "weight" of the vehicle... it has to do with the pressure said vehicle exerts in the mud. A fat mans foot exerts more psi on the ground than a wide offroad tire, again, its about the pressure, not weight. Now add the increased instance for wheelspin on a 4-Wheeler (more power to weight ratio)... all factors your original sweeping generalization didn't account for.

[quote="orvis1"] Get over yourself the atv community does a lot for the land as well. Do you think biker/hikers don't leave trash?

Marginal at best... beleive me, I work with the ATV community on a regular basis... a recent survey showed that less than 9% of ATV users took part in any club, service, association, etc. I know hikers and bikers leave trash... but you didn't call them out, you called out 4x4's, and that who I am here to defend ;)

And where the hell did you get my family photo's?

Huh???

[ExpUt]

...Not the ones off-trail (and I hope you're not suggesting that). I lot of the plant species take years to come back. Krypto crust is particularly hard to reestablish.

My comments are not aimed at illegal use... rather legit use as I beleive orvis1 was referring to. Your right it can take years to repair, we've been working on some areas for just that long... in some cases (AF Canyon for example) we plantet hundereds of new trees in order to curve off-trail driving (Snowbird donated the trees). In many cases we will fill the ruts by hand, cover the area with natural debris (ie big rocks, down trees, etc). The FS has had constructions come in and "erase" trails in many instances (Bay State Mines in AFC, Josephine Mine in Uintas, etc)... they do an amazing job at making it look like there was never a road there.

[Rev. Coyote]

Your right it can take years to repair, we've been working on some areas for just that long... in some cases (AF Canyon for example) we plantet hundereds of new trees in order to curve off-trail driving (Snowbird donated the trees). In many cases we will fill the ruts by hand, cover the area with natural debris (ie big rocks, down trees, etc). The FS has had constructions come in and "erase" trails in many instances (Bay State Mines in AFC, Josephine Mine in Uintas, etc)... they do an amazing job at making it look like there was never a road there.

Nice work. I can't wait until I live out there full-time and have a chance to get into hands-on voluneer projects. Here in VA, I've done river cleanups and a little trail maintenance on the AT.

Keep up the good work.

[orvis1]

[quote="ExpUt"]

The point is the wheelbase lengh is different for a atv and a vehicle. Anyone with eyeballs can see that, look at the width of the rut and you can tell how it was created.

Your right, the wheelbase is different, but then again wheel base has nothing to do with width, track width does. You have your theories, I have my experience.

I hope I am speaking english here, common sense dictates heavier machines will sink further in the mud. Or are you expecting some kind of physics lesson on how that works.

Not a physics lesson, you've already proven your not qualified to give that ;) It has nothing to do with the "weight" of the vehicle... it has to do with the pressure said vehicle exerts in the mud. A fat mans foot exerts more psi on the ground than a wide offroad tire, again, its about the pressure, not weight. Now add the increased instance for wheelspin on a 4-Wheeler (more power to weight ratio)... all factors your original sweeping generalization didn't account for.

Get over yourself the atv community does a lot for the land as well. Do you think biker/hikers don't leave trash?

Marginal at best... beleive me, I work with the ATV community on a regular basis... a recent survey showed that less than 9% of ATV users took part in any club, service, association, etc. I know hikers and bikers leave trash... but you didn't call them out, you called out 4x4's, and that who I am here to defend ;)

And where the hell did you get my family photo's?

Huh???

Wow more insults, I can't belive it.... I guess I didn't get the memo that you are god and much smarter than the rest of us.... I will just agree to disagree with you and as an FYI I do belong to an ATV club and pack out trash when I ride. My wife, daughter and I stay on designated trails and wear helmets when we ride. I guess you would look at us as "responsible" 4 wheel owners. I feel as though I have as much rights to use public lands as any other use group and will continue to contribute to orginizations that support my beliefs.





This is humor... A joke between me an the good Rev about the fat guys on motocycles he posted... ... I didn't expect you to catch it....

[JP]

I guess you would look at us as "responsible" 4 wheel owners. I feel as though I have as much rights to use public lands as any other use group

Well said