Death Hollow SAR

[CarpeyBiggs]

For those interested, more details can be had on the yahoo canyoneering group:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/message/41127

[Iceaxe]

They don't allow me on Yahoo anymore.

I've been swapping emails with Scott P. and if he posted over their what he suggested to me earlier then I can tell you with 94.6% certainty the info is incorrect..... (plus or minus 2% error)

Note to Stefan: trust me on this one.

[stefan]

Note to Stefan: trust me on this one.

not sure i know what you're talking about, shane.

you're providing information but not offering sources. you're identifying a book as being a part of the problem. i want to know which source identifies that book is coming from, i.e., you or your SAR contact.

the way you write things (in general), it's not clear what is your contribution and what has been passed onto you. if you don't want questions being asked, then i guess that's the way it is.

trust? this isn't a matter of trust.

[Iceaxe]

I answered the question the first time you asked.... a friend in SAR.

I also politely explained to you why I couldn't share more details with you at this time.... which I thought was more then fair....

I also told you the info could be in error..... or as deserthiker is so fond of saying.... second hand.

**This post neither represents nor reflects the opinions of Climb-Utah.com management. These statements may or may not be true. Iceaxe has been known to be full of shit.**

[stefan]

I also explained to you why I couldn't share more details with you at this time.... which I thought was more then fair....

fine, thanks. i wasn't asking for more information. i was just clarifying on the information that you had given, if any was your speculation or all SAR. not a fair question? i wasn't about to assume.

[CarpeyBiggs]

**This post neither represents nor reflects the opinions of Climb-Utah.com management. These statements may or may not be true. Iceaxe has been known to be full of shit.**

"Climb-Utah Management" - I love it.

[rcwild]

Lots of times I end up in a bit of a sticky situation with SAR's. A lot of the SAR team guys are friends and enjoy chatting and sharing what they know with me and the canyoneering community. Often their superiors want to keep everything in house until the official report. I know you guys are really interested in this stuff so I do the best I can to report what I know without getting friends in trouble....

[Jaxx]

for what it's worth I appreciate you posting the info Ice. I thought it was pretty clear that all the info he posted was from his SAR buddy. Now let's be friends

[Iceaxe]

Speculation OFF: Also... for some reason folks seem to be under the impression these guys were lost? They were not lost, they had a map, they knew where they were. Almost immediately after the shuttle left they knew what the screw up was, they knew where they were at and attempted to make the best of a bad situation.

Speculation ON: I'm guessing that many of you would have done the same thing. You are on vacation 500 miles from home, there has been a screw up at the start, you are on a time schedule, your car is at the other trailhead, you have a map and a description of anther route that get's you where you want to go. I'm thinking I probably would have done the same thing.

Speculation OFF: The group got in trouble not from being lost but from attempting to climb around the water hazard and getting cliffed out.

**This post neither represents nor reflects the opinions of Climb-Utah.com management. These statements may or may not be true. Iceaxe has been known to be full of shit.**

[CarpeyBiggs]

You tell fun stories Shane. I also like your description of "lost."

[Iceaxe]

I also like your description of "lost."

To me "lost" is having no clue where you are..... and I have been lost a couple of times. That's a really scary feeling.

These guys knew where they were and where they wanted to be.... only problem was the two places were not the same. I call that a SNAFU.

YMMV

[Scott Card]

Wasn't it some famous explorer that said something like, "I have never been lost, temporarily misplaced for a day or two but never lost" If someone knows the real quote, I would like it.

[CarpeyBiggs]

Are you referencing Daniel Boone?

"I have never been lost, but I will admit to being confused for several weeks."

[Scott Card]

Are you referencing Daniel Boone?

"I have never been lost, but I will admit to being confused for several weeks."

That is probably the one I heard a long time ago. Thanks.

[nat]

UPDATE:

It appears the local guide service was Escalante Outback Adventures and the problem might have resulted from the use of Kelsey's hiking guidebook which combines the Death Hollow, Boulder Mail Trail and Pine Creek into one page and one map as is his standard operating procedure. us point before.

Hmmm..., the usual punching bag when something goes wrong in a canyon. I've done Death Hollow 6 times, five from the top on Hells Backbone, and once from the east end of the Boulder Mail Trail. I've read Mike's description in his book many times, and certainly his book could probably have been better done. However, to say that the probem might have resulted from the use of his guidebook is giving way too much credit to either the people lost, or the people who brought them to the trailhead. I haven't the faintest idea how someone could have blown it so badly based on his book. It seems to me that some personal responsibility is in order here.

[stefan]

UPDATE:

It appears the local guide service was Escalante Outback Adventures and the problem might have resulted from the use of Kelsey's hiking guidebook which combines the Death Hollow, Boulder Mail Trail and Pine Creek into one page and one map as is his standard operating procedure. us point before.

haven't the faintest idea how someone could have blown it so badly based on his book.

yeah, irrespective of using either the 4th edition or 5th edition. doesn't add up.